Do you think of yourself as “tough?” It’s actually a challenging question to answer. We’re certainly eager as entrepreneurs, always ready to tackle the next challenge ahead. But what does toughness actually look like? Today’s conversation with Shara Ruffin reminds us that true resilience comes from hitting our lowest points. Today, she’s a bestselling author, LinkedIn influencer, and the Founder of Journey to Licensure. Her journey was brutal. She spent years facing every personal problem imaginable, often at the same time. But she still carved out a thriving business to help social workers take control of their careers. Shara talks about the many overlapping personal challenges she's been through that molded her into a truly resilient entrepreneur like parenting during times of grief, dealing with divorce, and engaging in destructive behavior like alcoholism.
Do you think of yourself as “tough?” It’s actually a challenging question to answer. We’re certainly eager as entrepreneurs, always ready to tackle the next challenge ahead. But what does toughness actually look like?
Today’s conversation with Shara Ruffin reminds us that true resilience comes from hitting our lowest points. Today, she’s a bestselling author, LinkedIn influencer, and the Founder of Journey to Licensure. Her journey was brutal. She spent years facing every personal problem imaginable, often at the same time. But she still carved out a thriving business to help social workers take control of their careers.
Shara talks about the many overlapping personal challenges she's been through that molded her into a truly resilient entrepreneur like parenting during times of grief, dealing with divorce, and engaging in destructive behavior like alcoholism.
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Hosted by Katherin Vasilopoulos. Made by Cansulta and Ethan Lee.
Music by © Chris Zabriskie, published by You've Been a Wonderful Laugh Track (ASCAP).
Songs used in this episode include: "Air Hockey Saloon," "It Takes a Lot to Keep a Figure Like This," "I Refuse to Accept That There's Nothing I Can Do About It," " Is This the Spirit Everybody Keeps Talking About?," "They Call It Nature," "Raise Your Hand If You Think Evil Is Increasing in This World," "Short Song 021523."
Used under the Creative Commons 4.0 International License
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:00:00]:
Do you think yourself as tough? It's actually a challenging question to answer. We're certainly eager as entrepreneurs, always ready to tackle the next challenge ahead. But what does toughness actually look like? Today's conversation reminds us that true resilience comes from hitting our lowest points. Some of us get hit with far more than we think we can stomach, sometimes all at once. But even when life blindsides us repeatedly, it's always on us to get back up. We have to make the choice to be tough. Sharra Ruffin spent 20 years helping others as a social worker and psychotherapist. Today, she's a best selling author, LinkedIn influencer, and the founder of Journey to Licensure.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:00:48]:
Everything she does is geared towards helping social to pass their license exams. But her journey was brutal. She spent years facing every personal problem imaginable, often at the same time. But she still carved out a thriving business to help social workers take control of their careers. And I think it's best if she tells you the story herself. I'm Katherin Vasilopoulos, and this is And So, She Left, the podcast about incredible women founders and the wisdom they uncovered beyond the corporate world.
Shara Ruffin [00:01:47]:
If I could recap it, I would probably start once I graduated from Howard University, I knew I was gonna probably get my 1st level license as a master's degree social worker, and I went for it, missed it by 3 points the first time. This was 2011, I took it again 2 years later, and passed it. Shortly after that, I met my future, now ex-husband. He was stationed at Fort Belvoir, then he went, to Afghanistan when I found out I was pregnant with my daughter, Asia Rogers. And she was stillborn. She was born in 7 months, and he was in Afghanistan at the time. And it was pretty much a traumatic story for the both of us because of losing her, and this is my 1st baby. When he returned, came my rainbow baby, Jaden.
Shara Ruffin [00:02:43]:
He was born with a kidney abnormality that the doctors told me he wouldn't live beyond his 1st birthday. He had surgery at 6 months. And at the time that he had the surgery when he was 6 months old, he became very colic, because the 1st 6 months of him being a baby, he was just a cute sweet baby, and then when he had surgery, it was it was hell on wheels, really. He was very sick. My marriage was starting to fall part as my ex-husband was transitioning out the military. And it was really just depressing for me because I was dealing with a child that was compromise. I still was dealing with the grief of my first child. I was also working at high stress level job, as a therapist, working 3 hours away from home, without a car, 2 buses and a train.
Shara Ruffin [00:03:32]:
And anytime that Jayden got sick, I would be in the hospital with him, turn back around, come into work, sleep deprived the next day. 5 or 6 years of his life. It was very exhausting. The other piece to it is that I'm mostly compartmentalized. I could be Shara the therapist and then at 4 or 5 o'clock, I was Shara the single mom going through depression. And drinking any bottled wine that could dry my sorrows and that everything was had fell apart, my marriage,tTrying to rebuild my career because it paused when I was a military wife.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:04:13]:
Mhmm.
Shara Ruffin [00:04:14]:
It it was just really challenging. Shortly thereafter, once I was able to collect my hours, which it takes about 2 years, it took me about good four and a half years, I resigned from that job in August right when my son was a kid in kindergarten, and I take my exam, November 2018, and I miss it by 2 points.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:04:36]:
Oh, no.
Shara Ruffin [00:04:37]:
I was pretty devastated because of how much work, how many personal challenges I had at that point in time. I didn't know what to do because not only did I had to deal with that, but shortly thereafter, I lost my part time job 3 months later when I was gonna retest because of the pandemic. Everything's at a standstill. I am now at home with 3 kids, my partner's 2 daughters, and the nurse my son, and they're homeschooling. I am chef. I am cleaning. I am doing everything that I'm supposed to do to make sure they're feeling supported, but I'm also crumbling inside. My mind is broken.
Shara Ruffin [00:05:15]:
I'm financially stuck. I am having excruciating cluster headaches because of the psychosomatic stress I was getting from, you know, where I was emotionally. And I I felt like I couldn't do anything. So for 8 months, I just played Animal Crossing on my Nintendo Switch, which gave me some reprieve when I didn't have the headaches to disappear in a world that I could build. And and I feel like I couldn't control anything. There was so much going on in the world, and I just needed to find an escape. In August of 2020, I ended up getting on, some medical assistance, and I was able to get a psychiatrist. I was able to get a, doctor, and I was able to get a therapist.
Shara Ruffin [00:05:59]:
For the 1st time in my life, I took anxiety medication for my generalized anxiety disorder, which had never been treated. I found out soon after that I also was diagnosed with ADHD combined type, which I had no idea I had. Once those things were treated with medication, I was able to take my exam, and I passed it. And that was pretty much the story that birthed, my consulting business.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:06:23]:
That is an incredible journey. I'm sitting here listening to you, and I am I'm out of breath for you because that's a lot. A lot of stuff was, was thrown at you. It's almost like you had to endure every possible disaster a human could go through in life. And yet here you are more resilient than ever, And you found the strength and the courage and the tools to, to move on from the different things. And I think that's what, creates the person that you are today. You've got so many moving parts that you were able to then, bring together and then create the foundation for what it is that you're doing now. You know, between.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:07:04]:
Alcoholism and migraines and no work and no
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:07:06]:
insurance and a pandemic and homeschooling and all that. How did you do
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:07:06]:
it all? In a pandemic and homeschooling and all that. How did you do it all?
Shara Ruffin [00:07:13]:
I don't know. I'm a very spiritual woman. I can honestly say it was a lot of, a lot of hope and prayer, when people think of resilience, a lot of times, only thing they'll say, yeah. I'm it. And I I just think that for me, I I have this tendency I always have of pushing. I'm the oldest of 5 children. I was born to 2 teenage parents, lived in section 8 housing, and my parents always push school, education, all of that, and I was always someone that felt like I needed to push no matter what the challenge or barrier was. Now I will say that it wasn't easy.
Shara Ruffin [00:07:52]:
There were times where I broke down, it felt like just thrown in and out, and sometimes I did. Mhmm. And I want people to know that there were points in those pivotal points of having postpartum depression with my son when he was born, really from, the grief of my daughter, thinking that my son was gonna replace her, in some weird sense of my wrapped up twisted grief, and he was born. And I almost gave him up for adoption because I was so much I was so into my depression at that point on top of finding out that my ex-husband at the time wanted to end our marriage.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:08:30]:
Mhmm.
Shara Ruffin [00:08:31]:
Right. And then it it was a lot. So there were points in that In that journey that looking back, I'm like, I don't even know how I got through it.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:08:38]:
But what you're saying makes some sense here in that people have faith and people have hope. And those are the things that, if you continue to hold on to them, they're the catalysts that keep you moving in life. If you remove those things from people, then you have nothing. And I think you you grasped onto that whether you knew it or not at the time, but I think that's what was happening. And also I wanted to say, yay, Jaden, for surviving all this and for making it to this point. I mean, your relationship to him must be amazing.
Shara Ruffin [00:09:08]:
It is. It is. He actually just came in to hug me. He just got home from school. But, yeah, he's been amazing. He's a little resilient little little boy. He's been through a lot. And so for him, there are aspects of his, the early parts of his upbringing, he will never remember, but I will.
Shara Ruffin [00:09:29]:
He's he's a straight A student, and he's in homeschooling. He's doing very well, And he's self motivated, and he's curious about the world. Most people on LinkedIn know him pretty well. They call him the LinkedIn child. He calls him the LinkedIn people, but, yeah, he's a very resilient little boy in the midst of, what I wanna say about in the midst of the pandemic even after, about a year ago, I lost my baby brother. He was killed, 5 blocks from me, his name was Samir. He took care of Jaden when Jaden was very young. He didn't make it to his graduation.
Shara Ruffin [00:10:12]:
He would have been, 21 next year. And I bring him up because I remember JD was in the midst of 2nd grade. I think despite that losing one of his closest uncles, he still got straight A's and he still did well. He had moments of grief, but he still did well. And I'm looking at this child and I'm like, you know, he had some struggles with grief and giving him support, but he he still refocused and did what he needed to do. And I just said, my god, what a resilient little boy.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:10:51]:
boy. Mhmm. Yes. And I think that whether we know it or not, our children observe what we're doing. And, maybe he, he sees what you do, without actually knowing what you do, but it's how you do it. It's the persistence. It's the, you know, leading by example as opposed to just, you know, say, do what I say, not what I do. And I think that he is resilient because his mama is is resilient too.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:11:19]:
I would love to go back and talk about that video that you posted on on LinkedIn and how that catapulted your LinkedIn presence. Can you tell me more about that?
Shara Ruffin [00:11:32]:
So with LinkedIn, I met a influencer who she had a 1,000,000 followers at the time. She was doing audits. I reached out to her, and she was doing LinkedIn audits of profiles. And I remember her telling me, Shara, you have 30,000 connections. What are you doing? You know, these connections. I said nothing. I'm just giving mental health support, and and she says, you're hiding behind a shiny profile. People don't know you.
Shara Ruffin [00:11:57]:
They're not gonna trust you. I didn't have a business or anything. I was like, so? She's like, I want you to do video for 90 days. I'll never forget that because me doing video for 90 days, and this is in the midst of right after I I had quit my job, and I started doing video when I was cooking, cleaning around my son, Jaden, which LinkedIn got to know a lot, because I would homeschool home, I would do video, and I would just talk about, the depression. I would talk about not passing my exam. I would talk about some of those challenges, and people got to see that in real time. And it was unorthodox to talk about those things on LinkedIn because it's a business platform. But to me, the way I looked at it is if people respond to mental health stories and me sharing, in written form some of the challenges I had even as a therapist, I thought it would be more powerful to share those things in real time about where I was because the impression of someone looking at a profile and someone's accomplishments and all of that doesn't really mean much because social media lies.
Shara Ruffin [00:13:00]:
Right? So I wanted people to see where I was in real time, but I was building a personal brand without even knowing it.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:13:10]:
That's interesting. So the the, the true you was the brand, not the shiny accomplishments, education profile, etcetera.
Shara Ruffin [00:13:20]:
Yeah.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:13:20]:
Do you think it's because people don't wanna see the smooth edges? They wanna see the rough edges first in order to get to know you?
Shara Ruffin [00:13:28]:
I think so. And some people are afraid of that, I've been told. I I know for me, it was almost a release for me to be able to get beyond that perfected profile, and I found that people found it a little intimidating later on. But it wasn't until people really started to get to know me that I talked about some of the struggles I had that people really felt connect, especially during the pandemic.
Shara Ruffin [00:13:51]:
When I was sharing that I was broke and I was really feeling stuck and I was on food stamps at the time, and I just was really struggling. People like, what? You're struggling with all the stuff that you have, and that's all they saw. But when I started sharing those intricate parts of the day in and day out, people really felt connected to me. So when I did eventually form a business, and had things to offer, it kinda took off on its own, but I think it's because I connected that trust early on, especially when I was in the midst of my struggles.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:14:26]:
Tell me also about, your experience with Clubhouse and who you were able to help in that respect.
Shara Ruffin [00:14:32]:
Around that time, I wasn't in practice, this is January 2021, and I decided to get on Clubhouse because I was told by my mentor, hey, get on Clubhouse. And I was like, what is this another app that I have to learn? So I figured I'd get on there, and I found it very comforting. I started sharing, my story to other groups of social workers, And I started doing a study group every Monday night for about 5 or 6 months. And what I found was that with me sharing my story every single time it connected people to me, they started to trust me more, and I was freely doing. I wasn't charging anything. People started passing their exams, which was amazing. And then I was told by another, mentors that this is great, but you still need to look at probably turning this into a business as you're not doing anything else. And then I ended up, getting a LLC and turning it into a consulting, business based on what my expertise was, exam coaching as well as my social work experiences.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:15:37]:
That's fantastic. So you're you're to me, you're a person who knew how to leverage the platforms to be able to go out and reach out to different groups of people. And, did you also help people with special needs?
Shara Ruffin [00:15:51]:
I did. In my time of doing this work, I've had so many different success stories of social workers who, really need help. I remember, the 1st 6 months, one of the stories I shared, her name was Shannon Shriver. She was a social worker in Boston who was deaf, and I remember her reaching out to me on Facebook, and she was like, think you can help me, and she's all people passing her exam. I was like, I don't know I don't know if I can help you because I don't speak American sign language, but she was very adamant about it, so we worked together on Zoom for about 7 weeks. She passed her exam on the 1st try. This lady, I found out later that during that time, she would have been in danger of losing a job if she did pass her clinical exam. She had 2 small children, and her husband had died from cancer shortly during the pandemic, so she was a widow.
Shara Ruffin [00:16:45]:
I had no idea she was going through all those things, and she trusted me enough to get her through that process. I've also had my 1st client who was blind, her name is Tanisha Tate, passed her master exam on the first try. So many other people who have had, TBIs, ADHD like me, anxiety, PTSD, different disorders. These are my colleagues that needed help with their license down, but they needed more of a holistic process that I was able to provide. The profound joy I get when I get a text or a call from someone saying I passed after the 11th time, because I had that happen, or someone's saying they passed after having debilitating anxiety, after failing it missing by several points. Rashida, my last client, she passed her exam on the 7th try. It's a reminder that, you know, it's more than a license to them. This is their livelihood.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:17:43]:
Yeah. Exactly.
Shara Ruffin [00:17:43]:
What they're working towards, and they deserve that license, but what they gotta go through to get it sometimes is it's very debilitating. And I know that journey very, very well.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:17:55]:
And also you went at it initially as a social worker, meaning somebody who is selfless, and wants to be a helper. To go from that then to being an entrepreneur, you have to change your mindset. What had to change for you in order to get to where you are now?
Shara Ruffin [00:18:11]:
Oh, boy. So yes. So I had to really look at my time a little differently. For the 1st 5 or 6 months, I was doing work for free, and I wasn't used to asking for money. There was an interesting conversation that was had with my coach where he says, Shara, I need you to monetize your services. And I was like, I don't think my clients can afford what you're, you know, telling me that they can. And he says this has more to do with you than it does with them. And I didn't realize it did that I needed to value myself more, that my experiences were worth something.
Shara Ruffin [00:18:50]:
And within 30 days, I saw $10,000 on my account. I was wondering like, holy crap, what just happened? And it was because I had to make a mindset shift. In my world of social work, social workers are cultivated and we're taught we are there to give to others, which we are. However, the flip side to that is social workers are under, usually underpaid and they often are undervalued. At that time, I needed to make that switch in my mindset from being a person that was just giving, still giving, but also being someone to know that my time, my value, my expertise was worth it.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:19:36]:
And I think people would very much have a lot to learn from your experience. I do. I do believe you went through something incredible to get you to where you are today. And I think that people will listen, and especially since they know you already, you did something phenomenal for yourself by creating that online brand, and allowing people into your home and, and into your personal space. Like how, how did that feel for you? Because not everybody can do that.
Shara Ruffin [00:20:03]:
There were times I will say that I was like, well, is this too much? And when I would get a message from someone saying, thanks for sharing, I definitely can relate. It helps me know I I think from my probably from my therapist days of, being a therapist and knowing that there were people that would not ever walk into my office because they were scared or they were still written with stigma. And I know what that's like. So having that mental health background, but also being someone that knows what it is to suffer in silence, helps me use myself as a vehicle to be that light to someone else in the dark tunnel. When people say I was really building a personal brand, I didn't even know what that was. At the time, I had experienced something, and I wanted people to know that they could accomplish anything, despite the challenges that life will give you, as long as you're breathing.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:21:02]:
Exactly. And you have a background in mental health and, and other healthcare, branches. When you were going through your own depression, did you know that's what it was?
Shara Ruffin [00:21:13]:
I did, but I kinda as a I think I went into my own dysfunctional patterns of coping. For me, maladaptive coping was something that I I did a lot back then. And there were periods where I had a therapist, I had, support and, I think that pretty much happened 4 years ago after getting to the other side of it. When I reflect back on those experiences now, I don't cringe at them. I was like, well, if this happened, this is what I got from it. And I actually appreciate that journey now more then I did when I went through it, of course.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:21:49]:
Right. Right. You mentioned, maladaptive coping. What does that look like?
Shara Ruffin [00:21:53]:
From a clinical standpoint, maladaptive coping just means that you're engaging in dysfunctional patterns that are comfortable to you, but they have an impact on your overall functioning.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:22:04]:
So, like, for example, drinking or-
Shara Ruffin [00:22:07]:
Drinking. Yep. So this would be a good example. So using me as example. When I was going through, oftentimes, probably the 1st 3, 4 years that, Jayden's life, 3 years, I wanna say, especially the first 3. Once I got home from work, You know, when you pick them up, I would go get, like, a Budweiser Margarita. I can't even stand to look at those now. But back then, I could have a bottle of wine, and we'd be going the same day.
Shara Ruffin [00:22:31]:
And knowing that was a dysfunctional pattern that was In my family, alcoholism was very heavy. And it was a way that I learned to cope at times, of course, I didn't have to go treat it or anything. I was able to kinda go cold turkey. And drinking now for me is like, I'm sure if I have a glass of wine. It's for the taste. It's not to to drown anything. It's a huge difference. But, back then, it was really just to escape.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:23:00]:
Is it a a control thing as well?
Shara Ruffin [00:23:03]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Very much so.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:23:06]:
And I think what you were mentioning also with the, the video game too when when we were all, you know, locked in and we just had to find ways to cope and and and get through the pandemic. Engaging your brain in an activity that allowed you to structure something or build something or create something is also a form of, of control, I guess. Maybe not in the same ways as consuming alcohol, but I I'm guessing it's something along those lines too. Right?
Shara Ruffin [00:23:33]:
I think so. That's that yeah. It was and I found it comforting that it wasn't just for me, that it was me. That game It was groundbreaking for what it was. It's kinda like Sims, but it was groundbreaking at the time because it connected people in a way because a lot of people couldn't see each other at the time. So it was a way that people could communicate and visit each other's little islands, and it kinda faded away now. But back then, It was a way that people could kinda like disappear to building their own worlds, and, yes, have control. The parallel for me between the alcohol, years prior and then the gaining, the parallel was just the piece that you talked about.
Shara Ruffin [00:24:12]:
The centerpiece was being able to control something because I felt like I had none.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:24:17]:
Mhmm. Right. Right. And escapism, I guess part of it is that as well.
Shara Ruffin [00:24:21]:
Yes. That's exactly what they called it for animal crossing. I remember reading about it. It was escapism.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:24:26]:
I'm also listening to you speaking and your story and all that. And how did you learn to be so open in terms of being able to share all this? You're you're okay with sharing the boo boos and the band aids, as opposed to wanting to gloss it all over. Where did you I don't know. For because for me, it's a little bit harder to show all those parts of me that I don't want people to see.
Shara Ruffin [00:24:50]:
I think for me, it took me a long time to get to that place. Most people wouldn't believe that I'm an introvert by nature. I am. I like-
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:24:59]:
You are?
Shara Ruffin [00:25:00]:
No. I am. You're laughing, Katherin. I I am. People just like, what? It feels like when Beyonce says she's a introvert, she is. She has another side to her that she's like, I don't wanna be bothered with anybody.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:25:10]:
Yeah.
Shara Ruffin [00:25:11]:
And for me, I it's the same thing. I can, it's not being fake. It's just another facet of my personality, and it's one that I've had to cultivate over time. The other piece is that growing up, I was seen and not heard. That was the culture that I was born into. Even culturally from African American community, that was the raising of the children. It's It's a common thread in African American families. My voice was shunned pretty early, so it took me many years to find that.
Shara Ruffin [00:25:40]:
It took me a long time to be comfortable with all pieces of myself and then make peace with this is what happened. This is what it is. What can I gain from it? What can I extract from it that can be a lesson for somebody else because it's no longer, of service to me, and that's how I look at it?
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:25:59]:
And in a in a child's life when they're being told, you know, be quiet, what does that do? Like, how did what do you remember about that as a kid?
Shara Ruffin [00:26:09]:
Well, there wasn't my really much, be quiet. My father was emotionally and physically abusive. So he was also in the military, in the navy, and he was busily and emotionally abusive to my mother, and that was the experience of trauma that I grew up in. So it pretty much had a lot to do with, I think, the pathology of that part of my personality and cultivating, that I'm at now a point in my life where I'm not willing to, keep quiet.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:26:47]:
Because I know our our childhood years are very formative, and they they dictate somehow what happens later. And I feel like you have taken the bull by the horns in such an incredible way, and you've transformed everything. Like, you're really impressive to me. Yeah. I wanna know, from all the challenges that you've had, in your life, and you've had many, which one is the one that you think has brought you the furthest?
Shara Ruffin [00:27:17]:
I would say being a mother. And I mean that in a very positive way. I never understood love, in the way that I do now. Looking at my son, sometimes I still spend my eyes like, oh my god. I'm a mom. Even though, you know, it's I'm 9 years in, he's growing and he's getting bigger, but I look at him and I see it fast enough myself, of course, his father as well, but, and I just think my god, I'm no longer scared of being responsible for another human being. In the beginning, I was.
Shara Ruffin [00:27:55]:
And now to watch him just grow up beautifully, finding his own personality, his own voice, asking questions, and shaping and cultivating him, but allowing him to have the freedom to shape his own personality, his own thoughts is a beautiful part of a child that I hope he remembers because I didn't have that luxury. And that's the part as a parent that I find that's very rewarding because as much as I feel at times I have nothing to do with his offering, I know I do in terms of my attachment relationship with him. But, yeah, being a mom has had its challenges, But it's also been beautiful to see what's come of it, especially now.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:28:42]:
Thank you so much to Shara Ruffin. You can learn more about Journey to Licensure through the link in the episode description. If you like the show, please rate, review, and subscribe to And So, She Left wherever you listen. Your feedback helps us to better serve current listeners and reach new ones. We also have an exciting announcement to share. And So, She Left has been nominated for 2 International Women's Podcasting Awards. A very big thank you to Michelle Redo and Thilde Peterson whose episodes were nominated. And of course, thank you to you for listening. And So, She Left is made by Cansulta, and Ethan Lee.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:29:17]:
We'll be back next Wednesday with a new episode. Our music is by Chris Zabriskie, edited for your enjoyment, and you can find a list of all the songs you heard here in the episode notes. I'm Katherin Vasilopoulos, and thanks for listening.