Born in Quebec, Canada, Rosemary Thompson grew up with two passions: journalism and music. Initially, she chose the path of journalism and spent 22 memorable years covering everything from the Met Gala to the tragic events of 9/11. But as time went on, Rosemary found herself faced with a difficult decision. Struggling to balance her demanding career and her family life, she was once again torn between her interests. This time, however, she made an unexpected choice. After over two decades as an award-winning journalist, Rosemary left her career behind to launch Artful Strategies, a full-service communications company where she can embrace her creativity and achieve real balance. In this conversation, Rosemary shares her experiences covering major stories firsthand, how she learned to break through the noise using clear and direct communication during her time in journalism, and the unique challenges faced by Canadians when it comes to pursuing entrepreneurship.
Born in Quebec, Canada, Rosemary Thompson grew up with two passions: journalism and music. Initially, she chose the path of journalism and spent 22 memorable years covering everything from the Met Gala to the tragic events of 9/11.
But as time went on, Rosemary found herself faced with a difficult decision. Struggling to balance her demanding career and her family life, she was once again torn between her interests. This time, however, she made an unexpected choice.
After over two decades as an award-winning journalist, Rosemary left her career behind to launch Artful Strategies, a full-service communications company where she can embrace her creativity and achieve real balance. In this conversation, Rosemary shares her experiences covering major stories firsthand, how she learned to break through the noise using clear and direct communication during her time in journalism, and the unique challenges faced by Canadians when it comes to pursuing entrepreneurship.
Learn more about Artful Strategies.
In this episode, we cover:
Quote of the Week:
“Try to pursue what you really want to do. Because if you do what you love, you’re going to do really, really well. And try to get really good at what you want to do.” - Rosemary Thompson
Hosted by Katherin Vasilopoulos. Made by Cansulta and Ethan Lee.
Music by © Chris Zabriskie, published by You've Been a Wonderful Laugh Track (ASCAP).
Songs used in this episode include: "Air Hockey Saloon," "Short Song 021623," "Short Song 011723," "Cylinder One," "What True Self? Feels Bogus, Let's Watch Jason X," "Virtues Inherited, Vices Passed On," "01 11-11 at Smith - Ninth Streets."
Used under the Creative Commons 4.0 International License
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:00:00]:
Hi, I'm Katherin Vasilopoulos. Starting my own venture wasn't easy. After a decade working in the corporate world, I realized that so many things were out of my control, like layoffs and changes in direction. I didn't like the instability, I didn't want that to define my whole career and professional story. And so I left. I started my own company and achieved more than I ever imagined. Now I'm on a mission to share stories from extraordinary entrepreneurs who are changing the world and who never gave up on their vision. Every so often it's important to remind ourselves that what we do doesn't define us. Just because you've spent a long time doing a certain job, even a job you love, it doesn't mean that you only need to focus on that one thing forever, that you can't excel at something radically different.
Rosemary Thompson spent 22 years in journalism. Her career has taken her around the world, covering everything from the Met Gala to 9/11. But after many adventures and accolades for her work, raising a family was proving difficult. Rosemary found herself making a career choice that explored her other childhood passion. Her new venture, Artful, has allowed her to take life into her own hands. In this wide ranging conversation, Rosemary talks about how her constant pursuit of fulfillment has been a guiding force throughout her life, from her early days in journalism to launching Artful just this past April. We also discuss what she learned covering major stories like 9/11, the experience of pursuing a career that doesn't allow for balance, and the unique experiences and challenges of pursuing entrepreneurship as a Canadian. Hi Rosemary, thank you so much for being with us today. It's such an honor to have you on our show. I first would love to hear about how you got started in journalism. What was the career trajectory up till now?
Rosemary Thompson [00:02:08]:
So when I was young, I loved the arts and I loved writing and I loved public affairs and I was sort of a kid immersed in Quebec. I grew up in Montreal and so it's a city that was very immersed in politics at that time. I was a little kid in the as I grew up, I thought about a career either in the arts or in journalism. And then at 17 I decided I would go into journalism. I went to Carlton University and I spent 22 years in journalism. And it was extraordinary. I learned so much, I was able to see the world. I worked for some amazing networks and then in my forties I went back to my original passion, which was music. I love music and I played the piano pretty seriously as a kid. So I think what I would say about my life or my career is that I've always told stories and I've told them either through journalism or the arts and that's kind of been my career path.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:03:05]:
Do you recall moments of incredible challenge in going through from being a student to then starting your first job, what did you find was the most challenging?
Rosemary Thompson [00:03:16]:
Well, I think you have to be courageous and I think you have to take risks. And as a young person, I was at Carlton University in Ottawa. I grew up in Ottawa, and I was always thinking about what could I do with this career of journalism? And so I was kind of ambitious, silently ambitious. I never would sort of outwardly talk about my dreams. They were sort of internal dreams, but I always hoped that I would be a foreign correspondent. That was my secret dream. And so I thought, how am I going to get there? And so as a young person, I was in third year university. I thought, okay, well, there had been an alumni at Carlton, Robin McNeil, and he ran the McNeil/Lehrer NewsHour, which was PBS in New York. I applied to be an intern on his show, and I was very lucky because all of the interns were American, with the exception of two. There was myself from Canada and another young woman from France, and we were in third year. And it was the experience of a lifetime. I mean, McNeil/Lehrer was the number one public affairs show in the United States in that era. And to be a Canadian in the midst of New York and that media landscape was a big eye opener. So you've got to be gutsy. You got to be gutsy, you've got to go for it. That's what I would say.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:04:35]:
So you're a Canadian in this American landscape and it's in an era where there were a lot of political events happening. And did you find that you had to change yourself? Did you find that you had to become someone else in order to succeed in there?
Rosemary Thompson [00:04:49]:
No, I think you have to be yourself. You always have to be yourself. I'm Canadian. I'm not going to change. I'm not going to be more sophisticated just because I'm in New York. I am who I am. I was a kid who loved art. I was even at that age, I was 21. And so I would spend my day working at McNeil/Lehrer and all the invitations would come in for the hosts, right? You know, the big stars of McNeil/Lehrer NewsHour. And there were invitations to the Met and invitations to the MoMA. So I would collect all of these invitations and I would ask permission if I could go to the opening because I had no money. And so it would be my chance to eat free food and go to the Met. And so listen, I had an incredible summer in New York and it gave me confidence to be a journalist, even though I was a helper. I was writing a little bit of coffee, but I would learn osmosis being in this kind of amazing place. And I think maybe at the end of the summer I was too confident. I thought, okay, I can do this. I went to a Canada Day party. It was down at the pier. I can't remember whichever pier it was, but Peter Jennings was there, who at the time was the host of World News Tonight. And I thought, wow, there's Peter Jennings. He's Canadian. I went straight up to him. I was like 21, 22. And I said, Mr. Jennings, I'm Rosemary Thompson. I'm from Ottawa. You're from Ottawa. I'm working for Robin McNeil, but I really want to work for you after I graduate. And I thought it was such a bold thing to do. You know, when you're young, you're sort of fearless. And he was so kind to me. Like, when I think back on it, he was so generous. He said, Listen, come up. I want you to see World News Tonight. It's just up the street. It's ten or 20 blocks away. Please come up. So I booked a meeting and I went up to meet him and he showed me around the newsroom and it was like it was the biggest newsroom in America in that era. And it was so exciting. And he said, here's my advice. Go and learn about another part of Canada. Go to a smaller market, learn your craft, become really good at being a journalist, and then work your way back to the networks, whether it's a Canadian network or an American network. So that's what I did.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:07:22]
There's a piece of advice that sometimes entrepreneurs get, which is go up to someone that you never would have spoken to otherwise and ask them a question. Go up to someone that you don't know or never would have seen otherwise, and then just go and have a conversation with them. And that's exactly what you did. And I think it propelled you into that next phase. Do you think that his advice was good advice? Did it actually serve you?
Rosemary Thompson [00:07:46]:
It was the best advice of all, because I think you have to learn your craft. You have to become really good at what you want to do. And to be a journalist, you need to make mistakes, and you can't go from zero to 100. He was right. If I had gone to the big network right at the top, I would have had more of an administrative role for my whole life. I would never have been able to be an on camera journalist because you're going too far too fast. I think it's really important to build your craft first. Somebody else told me in television that it takes seven years to get really good at something. I actually think that's true, and so I did. I spent seven years in local news with the CBC before I went to a network. And that was extremely good advice because I was able to do stories that were city hall or whatever it was, and then you graduate naturally to more challenging work and then you do the most challenging work, and you become quite adept at it, and then you take the step.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:08:53]:
So when you said earlier that you made mistakes, do you recall anything that stands out? And you thought, okay, I really learned from that mistake?
Rosemary Thompson [00:09:01]:
Well, I think you have to have humility always. I actually think you need it always through your career, but you can always learn from somebody else. I've always tried to work for people that were really good, that I thought I could learn from. So my first job was with the CBC in Winnipeg, and there were some extremely good writers and editors there, and I needed somebody to go through my copy and tear it apart, to actually teach me how to write properly. So I had this editor in Winnipeg, Paul Sullivan, and he was a tough editor, but I appreciated how tough he was. And then you just have to learn how to do a story, how to go out with a camera person, how to collect footage, and then eventually how to go live. And I remember the first time I went live, I was terrified, absolutely terrified, because you don't want to make a mistake. And I was outside the Winnipeg courthouse, and it was a trial of some kind, and I realized the weight of what I was doing, because you don't want to create a mistrial by saying something inaccurate, but then you think about what you're going to say and you kind of rehearse it, and then off you go.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:10:19]:
And so from all those learnings, years would go by, and eventually you end up with an amazing career, years, if not decades, in in journalism. And explain to me at what point you decided, well, maybe it's time for me to switch out of this.
Rosemary Thompson [00:10:35]:
So I did 22 years in television, television journalism, and I absolutely loved it. I went from Winnipeg to Montreal, and I spent ten years in Montreal, and they were very exciting years. It was during the referendum in 95 when Quebec almost separated from Canada. I was very young, I was 29, and it was a huge responsibility at a young age, and I felt the weight of it. And then they sent me to Washington. I was in Washington on 9/11. I was at the White House. That was my job.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:11:07]:
What was that day like? I want to hear about that day.
Rosemary Thompson [00:11:10]:
Well, it was terrifying. I was getting on the subway. My husband, he drove me to the subway, and I hopped on the subway. As I was hopping on, my phone rang, and it was the desk in Toronto, the editor saying, a plane has hit the World Trade Center. And I said, oh my God. And he said, well, get to the office as quickly as you can. So I was amazingly the first person in and Washington. It was very frightening because the Pentagon had not been hit yet, but it was hit and then people were terrorized. There was very little traffic. It was kind of quiet. I was walking to the White House with my cameraman, and people were leaving the core to get out of the city, and the Pentagon was on fire across the river, across the Potomac. And I was walking along, and I saw the Associated Press reporter who was one of our colleagues from the White House, because I was a foreign correspondent, but we all used to work at the White House. And I said, what does this day remind you of? And she looked up and she said, it's like Pearl Harbor. It's just extraordinary.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:12:18]:
Yes.
Rosemary Thompson [00:12:19]:
And then we walked a little further. We're just outside the entrance of the White House, the security entrance, and the Secret Service were screaming at us, like, get out of here. What are you doing here? And my cameraman and I were there, and we said, well, yes, it's terrible. And of course, the Pentagon. It's awful. What's going on? But we're just here. We're across the river. We should be okay. And they screamed at us, and they said, there's another plane coming. You have to get out of here. There's another plane coming.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:12:46]:
And no one knew at that time. Right. There was no information. You're going through this in real time. Now, in hindsight, we knew what happened, but on the spot, you don't know.
Rosemary Thompson [00:12:55]:
Yeah. And that was the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. So we were in the middle of all this and getting footage and interviewing people, and then we were going back to the office. This is kind of a funny story. And my phone rang, and it was my parents in Canada and my mother. And she said, Rosemary, what are you doing at the White House? Because I've been doing these live hits. And I said, Oh, mom, it's terrible and it's frightening, but we're okay, and we're heading back to the office. And she said, dad and I are very upset. We want to talk to you as soon as you get back to the office. And so I thought, okay, whatever. Love you, mom. But then I get to the office, file my stories, and then I speak to my parents. And my mother said, Listen, we're glad you're okay, but we've had a conversation, and we've decided you have to give up journalism. You must go into farming. That was a joke, but it was just a parent being very frightened for their kid living in DC. In that era, people typically walk away from danger, but journalists are trained to walk into danger, which is crazy. I'm sure people find that difficult to understand, but the journalists know that you may be walking towards the scene of danger. However, you're in the aftermath of the danger. So I don't know. We are very careful to protect each other and to not take unnecessary risks, but you have to be prepared to go towards the scene of the story because it's all about people, what people are doing and how they react to the situations that they're in. And so the best journalism is about having, I think, an empathetic approach and being a good listener and to be compassionate. And if you're like that, people will tell you amazing things.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:14:59]:
As we go along. Tell me more about what happened recently when you decided, okay, I think I did what I had to do, and now let me move on to the next phase. What was the decision making process, other than your mom telling you?
Rosemary Thompson [00:15:14]:
I didn't listen to her, really. I mean, I did, but I kind of laughed. I was 45, and I just wanted to change. It was really about being able to be more present for my children and my husband and my family. And I also felt I'd kind of done what I wanted to do in journalism. It was quite a slow burn. I didn't decide instantly. It was probably a thought process of a couple of years. Certainly my daughter, our daughter, was the instigator. I just wanted to be there for her birthday parties. I couldn't even control that as a journalist. It was about a two year process of kind of thinking about, okay, let's start to make the move on this idea. And so then I used to play a game, and I even did this when I was in Washington. If I didn't do this, what would I do? And when I was in Washington, I would say I wanted to work for one of the Smithsonians. I thought they were incredible institutions. I love the arts. I love culture. I love museums. I love that whole sector. And then we went back to Canada, and I had this office, and it looked out onto Parliament Hill. But around Parliament Hill is the Museum of History, the National Gallery, and the National Arts Center, three of the biggest cultural institutions in the country. And so I would look out my window and I would think, oh, yeah, I would like to work with one of those groups because I think they're just amazing. And so on the slow burn time, I started to reach out. I went and had coffee with people in those places just to understand what it was like and what kind of needs they had. And then there was a job that opened at the National Arts Center, and I applied, and I got it.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:17:00]:
During the slow burn period, do you remember what you were feeling?
Rosemary Thompson [00:17:04]:
I was feeling good. I was feeling that I was taking my life into my own hands. I was trying to put more balance in my life. Because when you're a journalist, there is no balance. Journalism is a passion, and you would never do it unless you were passionate about it. I wanted more balance, and I thought that the arts, because it was something else that I loved very much as a young person would be a place where I would get a lot of fulfillment, and I thought that there would be more balance. I was actually wrong about that.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:17:41]:
How so? What happened?
Rosemary Thompson [00:17:44]:
Well, I went to the National Arts Center. So the National Arts Center is like the Kennedy center, right? Or Lincoln Center. It's fantastic. 1300 shows a year. There's not a lot of balance in an organization with 1300 shows a year. However, I always wanted to work for people that I admired and people that I felt I could learn from. That was my lesson from even as a 17 year old. And then when I went to the NAC, the national arts center, the CEO of the NAC was one of the great CEOs of Canada, ever legendary cultural CEO, Peter Herrndorf. And I learned more from him in ten years than I learned from anybody. He was not the type of leader that would just sort of keep the lights on and keep things going. He always wanted to do something that was big for the country, and so he placed a lot of confidence in all of us. He was not a micromanager. I love the way he led and the way he managed. He created very clear goals, and then he would delegate to us, and you would do the work, and he would check in and make sure you're okay and you had everything you needed to do what he wanted you to do. And, yeah, he was a remarkable person.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:18:57]:
Yes. Surrounding yourself with inspiring people definitely elevates your game as well. And I want to learn more about what happened after that phase in your life.
Rosemary Thompson [00:19:07]:
I finally thought, well, maybe I need to open my own business and actually do this, like, take what I've learned over this really interesting career and try and help more organizations than just one organization. And so that's really why we started Artful. Artful strategies. It's only two months old. Artful is a strategic communications company and marketing company, and in time, in the next six months, we'll build it out into other spheres. But we wanted to start with our strength, and we want to work with leaders that we believe are going to drive the change that Canada needs in three areas. One is sustainability, one is inclusion, and the third is called inspiration. So the inspiration is the arts place. What happens in any country is that you're going to have voices that break through, and journalists have the ability to kind of identify the voices that break through. And how do they break through? Well, you have to be very clear on what your goals are, what your message is, and then you have to connect that through different channels of communication. Some of it is earned media, which is journalism. Some of it is social media, which is kind of your drumbeat of your organization. It's very, very important to have this kind of holistic approach to your message to allow it to break through.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:20:26]:
You mentioned that some of the voices break through. That was a very key statement that you made here. What are the common qualities of those voices?
Rosemary Thompson [00:20:36]:
Well, you need to be extremely clear on what your message is. You have to be clear. And it's hard to be clear. All those years in journalism helped me to be very clear, because when you're writing a story about 9/11 or a budget or an election campaign, you only have a minute and a half to two minutes to tell your story. It's extremely complex material and you have to crystallize it. And so you need to edit your work so that it's so clear that people can understand what you're saying and they can understand what this story is about. And so that's hard to do. It's really hard. And then you build it out. We can communicate in so many wonderful ways. Now you can communicate again, as I was saying, through social media, through podcasts, through your website, through earned media. But you have to have a consistent message, because if you're all over the place, people won't understand what you stand for. And sometimes it's good to have a listener who is not in your business, because you can see what you think is special and is distinguishing them, and then you help them break through.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:21:56]:
How are you feeling now, wearing all these different hats, being an entrepreneur versus being a journalist or being someone in the arts? That must have come to you as some form of you had an idea of what it meant to run a company and now you're actually in it. And what is the difference there?
Rosemary Thompson [00:22:15]:
It's massive. It's massive. It takes, again, courage to step away from a corporate environment into entrepreneurialism. I've worked in the corporate environment my whole life until two months ago. What's fun about it is you have to touch all of it. You have to sell your services, which is sales. You have to do accounting, you have to do invoicing, you have to do collections. It's actually quite a lot of fun because you get to know your clients extremely well in that process.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:22:44]:
How do you find the courage then to try and do this new thing? Because many people think about it, but don't actually go through with it.
Rosemary Thompson [00:22:54]:
So I was in the process of thinking about Artful and we started pitching a little bit. And then in January we pitched this other organization, Riopelle 100, which is the biggest arts project in the country. And it took a long time to get to the yes, but then it happened and it was like, wow, we got this. And so that gave me the courage to step away from the corporate world. But it's been my husband. My husband has been always with me, always since Winnipeg. We met in Winnipeg and he was a journalist with Radio Canada. And he's the most fantastic guy, and he has supported me all the way through this and to the point where we have children, we have a family, and I feel very blessed. I didn't give up all of that wonderful personal stuff. I really wanted that, but I couldn't have had the career that I've had without him.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:23:48]:
That's incredible to hear that there's this work life balance that you're able to achieve somehow by not just immersing yourself in the career and then giving everything up.
Rosemary Thompson [00:23:59]:
It's interesting. I think our generation is learning from the younger generation. I think the millennials, they're very smart. I've actually worked with a lot of millennials now that I'm in my 50s, because they've been on many of my teens. And millennials really want work life balance. They really do, and they fight for it, and they're good at setting boundaries. And I think our generation worked too hard. I really do. When I was growing up, it was the women's right movement, and it was always, you can have it all. Well, you can, but maybe not all at the same time. It's not easy to be.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:24:39]:
That's what Michelle Obama was saying in her recent Netflix thing. Yes, that's exactly word for word, you can have it all. Not all at once.
Rosemary Thompson [00:24:47]:
Correct. She's right. And when I left journalism that was a while ago now, 2009, but I left journalism just as Cheryl Sandberg wrote Lean In, and I said, you know what? I don't want to lean in. I want to lean out.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:25:03]:
Did you ever get to a point where you were just overwhelmed?
Rosemary Thompson [00:25:06]:
No, because when I got to those points, I would check myself and I would step back and breathe and say, okay, this is too much. And our family loves nature. And so we would go into the woods or we go skiing or all those good things. I think the NAC, like when I left the NAC for Banff, and it was very exciting, but it was extreme, like so much work, and I needed to step back and breathe. And my response was to go to the Rockies.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:25:42]:
It's a special place. You go there to just regenerate and breathe some different air and meet different kinds of people.
Rosemary Thompson [00:25:52]:
Well, you've experienced it, too.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:25:54]:
I did. I was there for three months in 2009 and experienced some wonderful learnings. And I was able to ride around my bike all summer, and I would go in places where they were actually bear sightings and without a bear spray canister, and people would say, you're crazy. Never do that again.
Rosemary Thompson [00:26:13]:
We had a little house in the woods on Tunnel Mountain, which is where Banff Center is. And we were putting out hummingbird feeders, right? And the people said, don't do that, the bears are going to eat them. And I thought, okay, it was the pumpkin for Halloween. Don't do that. The bears are going to eat them. And then the bus that was very funny. We had a little girl, and the school bus would come right to the end of our driveway, and I thought, wow, this is an amazing service. And they said to me, well, no, we do this because we don't want the kids to get eaten by the bears.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:26:47]:
Oh, my goodness. So you really that's not something you think about in a bigger city.
Rosemary Thompson [00:26:55]:
So funny.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:27:01]:
What do you think is the future of entrepreneurship?
Rosemary Thompson [00:27:06]:
Well, I think Canada needs more of it. I'm speaking from a Canadian perspective. Canada has not been as entrepreneurial as the United States, and now is a time when we must be, because we are lagging the United States right now in terms of sort of the prosperity of individual Canadians. And so part of that is because Canadians have not had the same courage to start their own businesses.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:27:31]:
Why do you think, though, that Canadians don't have as much courage to start their own businesses?
Rosemary Thompson [00:27:36]:
That's a really good question. Listen, we're different than the Americans. We have been historically. The Americans had a revolution, and we still stayed loyal to the Great Britain. So there's this incredible independent spirit in the United States, and Canada has been more, I would say, just not as revolutionary a country. It's peace, order and good government. That's our motto. I mean, that's literally what the Canadian government it's peace, order and good government. We are a big country. We have a small population, and it's really cold in the winter. So I do think that's part of our psyche, that we're trying to huddle together and stay warm and be okay, and so maybe we're a little more cautious in our approach sometimes. That's what I would say.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:28:26]:
I find that in the US. There's very much a hustler mentality and a business oriented mentality. And when you start a conversation with someone, there is a you know, people tell you what they do, not who they are. You have to insert yourself into the conversation if you want to be seen and heard, versus in Canada, there's a lot of and what about you? Enough about me. What about you? There's more of a politeness, there's a back and forth, and you have to remember that depending on where you are at any given moment, doing business. That's been my experience. Do you have any advice, though, for young people who think that they still need to be in this hustle culture all the time?
Rosemary Thompson [00:28:59]:
Well, I think it's the same advice that Peter Jennings gave to me when I was 21 or 22. I think you need to do what you want to do. So often we're told to not do things our parents might say, oh, don't do that. That's not going to work out for you, or it's not very, you know, it's not going to be enough money or blah, blah, blah. I would say to young people, try. To pursue what you really want to do, because if you do what you love, you're going to do really, really well and try to get really good at what you want to do. Like the Peter Jennings advice. Spend seven years at it, like really plug away at it in your 20s, because if you get really good at something, it will lead to something else. I'd say also to young people, you can go into corporate and that's fine. But I actually think this is a time of entrepreneurialism. I think because of the way we can work now, that you can work virtually, that you can create so many things on your laptop. Technology has become so small and so light and so accessible that if you're a content creator, my goodness, the world is your oyster if you become very good at it. So if you work corporate, go to leaders that you admire, that you could learn from. I've always said that. But start doing something on your own because at some point you may actually want to build your own business.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:30:24]:
Thank you so much to Rosemary Thompson. You can learn more about Artful through the link in the episode description. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating and review wherever you listen. Your feedback helps us to make the podcast even better. And So, She Left is made by Cansulta and Ethan Lee. We'll be back next Wednesday with a new episode. Our music is by Chris Zabriskie, edited for your enjoyment. You can find a list of all the songs you heard here in the episode notes. I'm Katherine Vasilopoulos, and thanks for listening.