Anna Li's been to over 90 countries. Burned out, anxious, and depressed from her job in tech, she started out side-hustling as an Airbnb host. But rather than bringing the world to her, Anna left everything behind to backpack through Southeast Asia. A few years later, her company Healing Journey Retreats is organizing a retreat to Tulum, Mexico. Anna's mission is to bridge the gap between neuroscience and travel. Discover what she learned about burnout through her trips around the world, how she used them to gain perspective, and the familial challenges she faced when she adopted the life of an ever-curious traveler.
Anna Li's been to over 90 countries. Burned out, anxious, and depressed from her job in tech, she started out side-hustling as an Airbnb host. But rather than bringing the world to her, Anna left everything behind to backpack through Southeast Asia. A few years later, her company Healing Journey Retreats is organizing a retreat to Tulum, Mexico.
Anna's mission is to bridge the gap between neuroscience and travel. Discover what she learned about burnout through her trips around the world, how she used them to gain perspective, and the familial challenges she faced when she adopted the life of an ever-curious traveler.
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Hosted by Katherin Vasilopoulos. Made by Cansulta and Ethan Lee.
Music by © Chris Zabriskie, published by You've Been a Wonderful Laugh Track (ASCAP).
Songs used in this episode include: "Air Hockey Saloon," "Prelude No. 20," "Prelude No. 7," "Short Song 020723," "Short Song 030523," "Short Song 020123," "Prelude No. 11," "Short Song 021123," "Short Song 020323," "Short Song 030923," "Prelude No. 12," "Short Song 012223," "Prelude No. 14," "Short Song 020523."
Used under the Creative Commons 4.0 International License
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:00:10]:
A middle aged piano teacher walks through an airport. Luggage in tow, she's strolling across another stretch of gray tiles scanning for her terminal. Apart from the odd announcement overhead, it's mostly quiet. Instead of finding her gate, she unexpectedly runs into some familiar faces, a couple whose daughter she taught ages ago. The girl was determined from what she can remember very focused and always wanting to learn more. For a while, the trio chat, they talk about the weather, about their destinations. Finally, the teacher asks, what's Anna been up to? The couple pauses. They turn to look at each other Then they tell her that Anna spent years traveling around the world and that she's now been to over 90 different countries. she loves it, they smile. And one day, she wants to start her own travel based business. I'm Katherin Vasilopoulos, and this is And So, She Left, the podcast about incredible women founders and the wisdom they uncovered beyond the corporate world. Entrepreneurs are curious creatures. The greatest ones never stop learning. Some channel their curiosity into researching their competitors while others use it to pick up transferable skills. For Anna Li, her curious nature allowed her to learn much more than piano chords.
Anna Li [00:01:52]:
Through traveling, I realized that other people from Other parts of the world were living in a very different way. And here, it's super ingrained to just, you know, graduate from university, find a job. Yes. Yes. And go forth.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:02:11]:
And as the founder of healing journey retreats, she uses neuroscience and therapy to help professionals overcome burnout and stress.
Anna Li [00:02:18]:
So I partner with therapists and psychologists as retreat facilitators to offer a more evidence based approach while still incorporating yoga, beach time, and fun things like snorkeling with turtles.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:02:31]:
But during her 10 years previously working in the tech space, Anna herself was burned out, depressed, and anxious.
Anna Li [00:02:38]:
I'm a really passionate person. I and I don't really know how to dial that down. I think I care too much. and so in a way, I think that's a double edged sword because then you give yourself your fullest, and I used to pride myself in being that person who is such a hard worker. And goes above and beyond of what I was asked to do and, you know, improving processes like my friend and center. But then I realized that, you know, it wasn't sustainable for my mental health. I would just burn out, and then I would kinda crash.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:03:17]:
You mentioned something just now, that made me go, you know, when you said you care too much, do you equate that with high performance, you know, people who just outperform everybody else because they care too much.
Anna Li [00:03:31]:
Oh, yeah. I think for me, That is definitely the case. I think I'm a very type a perfectionist, and I and I used to, you know, have that as a selling point, not even on purpose, but just naturally, I would say, you know, good enough is not good enough. Let's say during interviews or once I'm at a job, I just always held myself at a really high standard And, maybe that has something to do with my dad being a a surgeon. And, you know, ever since I was young, he'd say, you either do it perfect or you don't do it at all. and then it was during my adult lives that I realized, okay, we're not doing surgery here all day. people's lives are not at stake.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:04:20]:
Well, I guess you're lucky in that you have an opportunity to say, well, this isn't brain surgery. You can literally say that for certain things. But I was gonna say that that level of of that sense of perfection comes from somewhere. We learn it as children by observing our environment or the adults in our in our lives. So I'm curious to know, what did the burnout look like for you when you started feeling it at at work?
Anna Li [00:04:46]:
I think it was just, a lot of irritability. I think I just became this like, monstrous person. It was hard to contain this anger or something inside of me and, you know, I guess, coupled with the perfectionism and when I felt burnt out, it's like I was so mentally exhausted, but at the same time, I wanted to push through for some reason, and then that just kinda came out in such, I don't know, toxic ways. Like, I would, you know, find myself feeling like I need to roll my eyes at meetings or something. You know, if I heard something that I didn't align with. And back then, you know, I was like, but why can't we do things like this way? And why can't it just be x, y, z? So, yeah, I think it was just complete anger and resentment for no reason. It spiraled into, you know, more physical symptoms, like waking up with a piano on my chest type of feeling. feeling like my arms had, you know, concrete in my veins. it, it was very physical, and, you know, just kind of dreading work, even though, you know, I had supportive colleagues who kind of were going through similar experiences. And then I felt like I was not able to do simple tasks, like write emails, or, you know, just the things that are so easy to do, would take me minutes. And I was like, what's happening? You know, why can't I focus?
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:06:34]:
Like, you waited till the physical manifestation showed up and then said, okay. This is it. I have to to do something about it. And leaving, a situation like that is actually very wise. So Yeah.
Anna Li [00:06:47]:
But it's hard. You know, it's so hard because you're like, one of the most essential part of our lives is having a job. And so, yeah, it was just very conflicting to be like, well, do I leave this thing that is So, you know, it's taking, like, 80% of my awake time. Right? And and maybe I could just push through. And I think most of us are not really taught what even is burnout. Like, how what are the signs? Right? And so it's like, oh, I thought this would just like normal work stuff that everybody experiences, you know, because we know, like, there's no perfect There's no perfect partner. There's nothing in life is perfect. So then you just kinda like, oh, well, like, this is what I have. So, like, I'm gonna, you know, push through. So, yeah, I think it's just, like, not even knowing that it was burning out. And I just thought, like, I was becoming this person that was that I didn't even like anymore.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:07:42]:
According to the World Health Organization, Anna was experiencing all the symptoms of severe burnout. She's far from alone. A global study from Yerbo found that 2 and 5 IT professionals are at high risk of burnout. In IT security, it's more than half. Anna eventually found herself planning for a work life outside of tech. Luckily, she has already found a side hustle that spoke to her love of travel.
Anna Li [00:08:08]:
At the time, I was also a side hustling as an Airbnb host. This is almost 10 years ago. I just really fell in love with, you know, having people at my place, you know, like I said, on my couch or on my spare bedroom, I just really felt like when the person is staying with you, you just naturally wanna be a good host. I would, you know, take them out to meet with my friends. We'll grab something to eat. We'll go on picnics. Go sailing in Lake Ontario. And it just really reminded me of the times when I traveled and, you know, conversations just kind of come up naturally because you're just sitting, you know, across from each other at the dining table in the kitchen or, you know, you're in your room and there's, like, beds, and you're just like, hey, where are you from? And, you know, where have you gone? I think hosting people from all of the world makes me feel like, okay, I'm kind of seeing the world through, you know, this different lens. And, you know, I've hosted people from all over the place, and they all love that I was able to show a piece of my life in Toronto and my friends and, you know, where the locals go and what we do and what we talk about. And, yeah, I think that has really shaped me. And again, like being a passionate person, not able to dial down the care too much. In this case for hosting, it's a great quality because, you know, going above and beyond to show guests around and you were, like, leaving cute little notes around the house, having snacks for people. It really creates that kind of memorable bonding experience with guests, hosting on Airbnb has definitely also shaped me to who I am today, and it has brought me tremendous fulfillment enjoy when, you know, that was something I couldn't find, let's say, in a job per se.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:10:00]:
Anna's passion served her well as an Airbnb host. She cooked with guests, made sure they were comfortable and even took them out on the town in the evenings. And when she eventually wanted to break away and travel herself, hosting offered her a financial foundation.
Anna Li [00:10:15]:
Yeah. I think I had made some, you know, good income from that, having people stay at my place while I was traveling elsewhere. And so I thought, you know what? I have a good enough runway to just take some time off for myself. And especially after seeing Europeans and Australian traveling the world for weeks or months long at a time. I thought, okay. Maybe this is something I don't wanna do. So then I, you know, handed my resignation letter. I told my landlord, like, I cancelled my lease, and then it just kinda packed everything, moved everything into storage. And, had all my stuff in a backpack. And I thought, okay, let's go travel the world. And I think I spent something like 11 months going through all of the countries in Southeast Asia. You know, in my twenties, that trip really opened my eyes to what living life felt like. And I I'm super grateful that kind of took that time in my life to enjoy something like that because, you know, as we got older know, there's harder to take something, like, 11 months off to travel alone. So I have no regrets that I did that, and I'm super grateful for that experience.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:11:29]:
And as she backed back through lush jungles and open city spaces, Anna found her demeanor and personality changing. She adopted a growth mindset, a stark difference from the unhappy tech worker she once was, The journey wasn't without its challenges. At this time, Anna found herself welcoming them with open arms. Do you remember any kind of, stories that you wanna share or something that really struck you? And you're like, oh, yeah. This is...this is something that will always stay with me.
Anna Li [00:12:03]:
Yeah. I think the biggest lesson from that trip was just that, you know, we can't really have everything we want at the same time and that being, like, time and money, because I was finding, like, okay. We'll now have all the time in the world. And I do have, you know, a small runway, but I have to think about every dollar that I was spending. I think, you know, making decisions like Here's a flight that can get you from point a to b for $150 versus taking a 46 hour bus train, you know, boat transit to get you, but it's only like $30. And you're like, Okay. You know, I'm gonna think about that. So I've taken a lot of slow travel ways and, I mean, they were all experiences, you know, I had to stay on a boat and, like, there was they oversold the ticket. So I was in the engine room, and it was, like, 40 degrees, but I don't know. It was just like such an experience because, like, there were so many other travelers and everyone just started talking where they have gone and where they've been and It's like a small silver lining, right, in something like that. And I do remember in Cambodia and Laos, you know, there were so many children who was just running around without shoes and the people there are so they really don't have much, but then they really have the most genuine you know, smile on their face. when I, you know, would make little origami cranes as, like, little things because they don't speak English. Right? I would just, like, tear off a page from my journal, make a little origami, give it to them, and then they would just light up completely. You know, like, they've never seen this little bird that can, like, move if you pull on the tail. You know, I would draw little pictures of their faces on my notebook. I would tear it down that, like, tore tore it off and, like, hand it to them. And they would just be so happy, and then they would, like, go back, run around, bring their friends back, and, like, And, yeah, I think it's just like little little moments like that that I feel like, wow, you know, here I was hustling so hard. for money and here, there are so many people who've really just have the most, I don't know, purest of intentions
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:14:15]:
Yeah. I'm smiling because I did the same thing once on a holiday. I made a an origami frog. And you push on the on the bottom. jumps. Yeah. And anyone who saw that were like, woah. And it sometimes it impressed the the older people more than children. Right. But they had never seen that. And it was just so wonderful. And it's those pure moments, as you said, like, they're just pure human bonding.
Anna Li [00:14:40]:
Yeah.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:14:41]:
Over something as simple as a paper animal. After years trekking across the world's most vibrant regions, Anna went back to the tech industry She surrendered to its apparent stability, seeing it as a secure way to pay the bills. But when she found herself burned out again, the time came to transform her passions into a business. The transition was tough.
Anna Li [00:15:12]:
So several years ago, I wanted to pursue, the dream of having my own hostel because I stayed in so many of them. And sometimes I thought, you know what? I Katherin kinda do this or maybe I could even do better. Also, with the timing and, you know, I had another burnout from another job. And I thought, okay, let's repeat this.
Anna Li [00:15:30]:
pack up my life, quit my job, hand in my lease, go on a trip. But this time, I decided to do a market research trip And, on hostelworld.com, they do this list called the Oscars, which is Oscars for hostels,
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:15:46]:
Oh, that's funny.
Anna Li [00:15:47]:
And they do it by, like, categories too. it's really just like the Academy Awards So I looked at that list for, like, 3 years or something, and the top hospitals were all somehow concentrated in Lisbon, Portugal. So I thought, okay, let's go to Portugal then for 3 months and check it out. So then I basically spent all of my time, they're staying at the best hostels that were on that list. I worked at some of them. I all day, every day interview with the managers, the owners, like, trying to learn the business and really just try to myself in, like, what makes these hostels the best in the world? So I wanted to do this in Montreal, Canada, but then the pandemic hit and just kind of made me pause on this dream. And then I went back to working again, because, again, bills have to be paid, and I was back in the tech industry doing what I know. And I think that's when I had this just giant hole in my test. I think that was me mourning the loss of this dream because I was so passionate about this, and I couldn't do it. And I just felt like the job that I had and the life that I had, I mean, everything was great from other people's eyes. And I was saying to myself, like, what's wrong with you know, what's wrong with me? Why can't I just be happy with what I have? You know, why do I have to feel like something is missing? For a while, it it it just became this thing that I think I had to, like, burry deep down under my heart and compartment to lies in a joy in my brain, and it's like, okay. Let's just not think about this anymore. It was a difficult time.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:17:35]:
So what did you do to get out? Get out of that mindset.
Anna Li [00:17:39]:
I mean, to be honest, like, I think it's just something that I spoke with my therapist about all the time monthly in our sessions because I was like, you know what? I really miss this. I even had a Instagram handle called the hostel Journey. to document the journey of creating a hostel. So then I was like, this died. And and I just started kind of writing about my negative emotions because I was like, you know, I mean, I'll have to process all of these things that I'm feeling and I was also then at the same time just struggling with burning out anxiety depression. Everything we see on social media is about success is about happiness. No one writes about the the reality of what's happening behind someone who, you know, took 9 months out of their life to go pursue their dream, and it all looks so amazing. yeah, I had a lot of people DM me and say, like, just thank you so much for sharing your journey and for being so vulnerable and talking about your struggles and, you know, it just really makes me feel less alone. So yeah, I think I think writing for me was really tint and, again, therapy has really saved my life.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:18:54]:
But it's a shared experience. It's a it's a shared human experience that we have things that we wanna build, there's dreams, and then an event happens, or we run out of money, or there's illness, whatever the the reason, but it's hard to to think that, all the things that I've ever wanted to do aren't gonna happen. So of course, it put you in a state where you have to do, you know, you go through the mourning process and you have to come out of it on the other side thinking, okay, I have to do something with my life What do I do next?
Anna Li [00:19:25]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's not like when whenever I wanted something to happen, then the universe like, okay. Well, here you go. You know, I thought I thought, okay. Maybe I just have to be patient. Maybe, maybe, you know, it's just not time yet. And in my notebook, I remember drawing this little picture of a mountain And I put on the top of the mountain, I wrote, like, hostile dream, you know, or something like that. And then I kinda had, like, a dot in the middle or at the bottom of that mountain. I was like, this is where I am. And I was thinking, okay. What is the way to get to that top of the mountain? from a different route. You know, there's so many, like, trails and roots to take. There's there must not be just one way to get there. And then, yeah, afterwards, I think there was one day I was talking with my therapist, and I thought, what if there's a different way of you know, getting what I want. What if I can curate this travel experience and, you know, creating all of these activities that really bring people together, what if I can create that experience without owning a hostel or without managing a hostel. Right? Is there any other way? So I thought, okay, but what if we go somewhere where we have, you know, let's say a certified therapist, who is giving us some workshops and talking about how the brain works, why we get depressed, why we feel anxious, what are some tools that we can actually learn to implement, But you're still rewarded for your hard work. And, I mean, like, introspection is hard work. No one really wants to do kind of, like, looking at my life and what's what's the patterns, you know, that I need to work on. but, yeah, I think it helps with rewards like swimming in the ocean and, you know, meeting new people who have been through similar things and eating amazing food and being in the sun. So I thought, okay. Maybe this is kind of like a retreat experience. You know, there's this diagram, called the IKigai in this Japanese concept where it's like 4 circles, you know, what you're good at, what you love to do, what the world needs, and what you can get paid for. And I was like, maybe there's something I can do with this.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:21:48]:
Today, Anna's happier than ever. her next retreat is in Tulum, Mexico. Guests will be nestled in Quintana Roo, a lush jungle near the crystal clear shores of Akumal. They can partake in a dizzying number of stress reducing activities like yoga, a sound healing bath in a cave, snorkeling with sea turtles, and hiking through the ancient Mayan ruins nearby. But before she made her business a reality, Anna faced one final challenge. Her family.
Anna Li [00:22:18]:
So I'm also Chinese Canadian and, you know, we're an immigrant family. And, yeah, when my parents go talk to their friends. you know, all they talk about is their kids. And, you know, it's like, oh, well, my son is a doctor. My son is a lawyer and, you know, And so there's always this one word that just really describes what people do. For me, I've always had such difficulty with answering this question, and I just thought, like, I am so multifaceted, you know, like, I was a product manager and I was an Airbnb host and I was an avid traveler. And, you know, now I'm a retreat leader or an entrepreneur. I'm just really good at enjoying life. But, you know, that's really hard to describe, especially by my parents. So what happened was that, they met by accident my childhood piano teacher at our airport. 20 years after we left China. And the piano teacher was asking about me, and my parents told her You know, oh, Anna has traveled the world. She's been to, like, more than 90 places. She's spent almost 5 years. Solo. They told me this story, and I was really shocked at how that's how they saw me. I was for many years, I was like, oh, I am not this easy story to tell from my parents when they meet up with their friends. but it was so nice to see them, I guess, being proud of me in that light, you know, that I am this person who didn't really pursue the normal path in a way. And, yeah, I've become this traveler in their eyes that that they were proud of. So so, yeah, it was really interesting.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:24:03]:
And that's a good thing, not traveling the normal path. That's the hardest thing to do. It is the harder thing to do. to just go out and find your own way instead of just acquiescing and saying, okay. I'm just gonna do what's the easiest thing and just go get a 9 to 5 and sit in the cubicle and pay my bills. I think you discovered that earlier on. Much, much earlier than most people do. And that's good. You know, you should congratulate yourself and know that The the road to entrepreneurship is not easy. It's not hasn't been easy for anyone. We've been talking to guests now for weeks and on the show of what I'm discovering is everyone had a passion, everyone had a moment where they move on to something that they actually really love and it makes an impact on their lives and the lives of the people that they've hired in their jobs. And that's what it sounds like you're doing right now is that you've created, like, Like you said, those 4 intersecting circles, you're discovering that this is what makes me happy, and this is the path that I like. What what has been the biggest challenge for you? I know you've told us a a many, collectively, but, you know, when you look back now, the most challenging part for you has been what exactly?
Anna Li [00:25:10]:
Oh, I think just taking the leap into entrepreneurship because none of my family members were ever business people or entrepreneurs. They were all, you know, academia. My mom was a biochemistry professor. And, of course, I think as parents, they want to protect their children. And so it's like, well, I don't know anything about this, so I feel like I can't help you. And so entrepreneurship was definitely not encouraged at all, it seems to have this risky kind of combination to it. You know, it's very, like, well, you have to survive. You have to pay your bills. So how are you gonna do that if you don't make money? And I have doubts constantly now that I am doing this and that voice becomes really loud and it's like, okay. Well, maybe your family was right. Now I know how to travel, and I'm really good at it because there's also ways to travel that are sustainable because people can also get burned out from traveling. So there's so many little things that you just wouldn't know until you've done it, and I feel like taking the leap is has definitely been the hardest thing. And, and, like, again, I'm still having a lot of doubt and fear, and there's a lot of pressure on myself. It's all an experience. It's all a journey, and this is part of life. Like you said, life is short, and I I'm a questioner. I questioned things, and here is what it led to me. So let's give it a try and see how it goes.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:26:55]:
Thank you so much to Anna Li. You can learn more about Healing Journey Retreats through the link in the episode description. At the time of this recording, Anna's next retreat is in Tulum, Mexico from January 7th to 14th, 2024. Early bird prices are available if you book a clarity call with Anna before September 15th. You can sign up through the link below. If you like the show, please rate, review, and subscribe to And So, She Left wherever you listen. Your feedback helps us to better serve current listeners and reach new ones. You can also fill out our quick feedback form. It's just five questions long, and your response will help us to make the show that you want to hear. And so she left is made by Cansulta and Ethan Lee. We'll be back next Wednesday with a new episode. Our music is by Chris Zabriskie edited for your enjoyment. and you can find a list of all the songs you heard here in the episode notes. I'm Katherin Vasilopoulos, and thanks for listening.