Margery Kraus is a PR powerhouse. With over five decades of experience in her industry, she’s received every major communications award and founded the largest majority women-owned PR firm in the world: APCO Worldwide. But her successes weren’t just the result of her work at APCO…they also came from her experiences as a mother. In this conversation, Margery shares her secrets to finding happiness both at home and behind the desk. Margery also opens up about the challenges she’s faced as a woman in a male-dominated field, including condescension, bullying, and even betrayal. Through it all, her family and children have been her greatest source of growth and inspiration, as detailed in her book, “Roots and Wings.”
Margery Kraus is a PR powerhouse. With over five decades of experience in her industry, she’s received every major communications award and founded the largest majority women-owned PR firm in the world: APCO Worldwide. But her successes weren’t just the result of her work at APCO…they also came from her experiences as a mother.
In this conversation, Margery shares her secrets to finding happiness both at home and behind the desk. Margery also opens up about the challenges she’s faced as a woman in a male-dominated field, including condescension, bullying, and even betrayal. Through it all, her family and children have been her greatest source of growth and inspiration, as detailed in her book, “Roots and Wings.”
Get Margery's Book: Roots and Wings: Ten Lessons of Motherhood that Helped Me Create and Run a Company
Hosted by Katherin Vasilopoulos. Made by Cansulta and Ethan Lee.
Music by © Chris Zabriskie, published by You've Been a Wonderful Laugh Track (ASCAP).
Songs used in this episode include: "Air Hockey Saloon," “Oxygen Garden,” “Candlepower,” “Cylinder Five,” “Short Song 030932,” “Short Song 022823,” “Short Song 020523.”
Used under the Creative Commons 4.0 International License.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Katherin Vasilopoulos. (Breath) Starting my own venture wasn't easy.
After a decade working in the corporate world, I realized that so many things are out of my control, like layoffs and changes and direction. I didn't like the instability. I didn't want that to define my whole career at professional story. And so, I left. I started my own company and achieved more than I ever imagined.
Now I'm on a mission to share stories from extraordinary entrepreneurs who are changing the world and who never gave up on their vision.
(Breath)
Work-life balance doesn't exist. What does exist is work-life integration.
This according to today's guest, Margery Krause. Finding ways to naturally integrate every part of your day is the key to a happy life at home and behind the desk. And Margery is a living testament to this idea. With a career spanning more than five decades, Margery has received every major award in the communications world.
She founded APCO Worldwide in 1984. Today it's the fifth largest independent PR firm in the U.S., and the largest in the world that's majority women owned. Of course, working as a woman in a male dominated field since the 70's meant facing many challenges. She's overcome condescension, bullying, even betrayal. But through it all, Margery's family and children have been there to help support her and help her grow.
Her book "Roots and Wings" covers 10 key lessons she learned as a mother that helped her to become a PR powerhouse.
Hello Margery. Thank you so much for joining us. Let's talk about your story. Give me a brief overview of your story, Margery.
Margery Kraus: [00:01:57] So, um, I, I grew up in this small town. I went to school and, um, something extraordinarily bad happened to me. Um, when I was, uh, about 14, my, uh, mother's youngest brother, who was only seven years older than I was, um, his name is Sam, Sammy, um, came and he lived with us because, um, he needed a different climate. And when he was 21 he got cancer. And he died.
And it, um, had a profound impact on my life. Um, he, um, I sat with him almost every day till he died, and, you know, he was only 14 and. He, I realized that if I was ever going to, if I was gonna die when I was 21, I wasn't gonna waste a day. And so I ended up going to, um, Europe, um, to be an au pair for the doctor who took care of him because they thought that would be good therapy.
And I traveled around Europe myself, and I came home and said, you know, I'm a junior. I'm, I'm just going to leave school and go to college and go faster. And that's what happened. I convinced several colleges to take me after my junior year and never got my high school diploma at that time. I got it after I got my master's.
I had been going to summer camp as a counselor and I met my future husband. Um, he was, uh, in law school in Washington and we got married my senior year of college. Now my parents are saying, oh God, you didn't graduate high school. Now she's not gonna graduate college. This is a disaster, because they had all these high hopes for me, and it was like, what are you doing? Um, and, and then I had my first child and had a second child. And um, and then there was a successor organization called Close Up. When I called close up, they had no jobs. And I said, okay, I know how to do this. I know exactly what you need and I'll give you money back guarantee if it doesn't work. And the rest I've worked like every day since then.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:04:16] And um, the name of the book is "Roots and Wings." Well, where does that concept come from? Why did you name the book that?
Margery Kraus: [00:04:23] Roots and Wings came from the fact that, um, when my kids were growing up, I have three children. I had a sign on the wall that there are only two lasting things of value you give your children. One is roots and the other is wings. And as I grew my company, since we were in so many countries with so many different kinds of people, people would say, well, you know, I was just in your office in Germany and you know, it felt like I was in the same office. You know, how do you have a global company where it's one culture?
How do you do that? And I started to think about it and I realized that I was building the company the same way I raised my kids, which is that having one central set of values for the company and then giving people freedom in a framework. If people believe in the set of values. If you're aligned on kind of the mission and the values of the company, then you can give people freedom to operate.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:05:21] That goes back to your whole concept of work-life integration as opposed to work-life balance. Right? There's this, you're making a distinction-
Margery Kraus: [00:05:28] Yes, I just don't believe that there's work life balance. I think anybody who tries to live their life that way is doomed to, um, a lot of stress, unnecessary stress and, um, and, and feeling of failure.
Um, I think that on any given day one or the other wins out, . And so it's a matter of how you bring these things together and what you can do to make things a little bit easier by thinking about what you do at work and how you can integrate any kind of, uh, um, interest in your family or vice versa. You know, there were little things like even traveling and bringing home money and a foreign currency and having that help with math. I mean, there's just, you know, my grandchildren, when I was traveling, they had a big, they were homeschooled. Oh, several of them were homeschooled and they had a big map on the wall about tracking where I was going. And, um, you know, so there are all kinds of ways.
You don't have to, um, you know, do something elaborate, but it's a, it's a mindset. Of not creating an artificial separation. And also, again, communication is really important. So, you know, we tried to say, okay, what is, what are the must-haves here? So if somebody was in a school play, and it was really important for me to be there, I would find every way in the world I could to be there. Um, but I might miss something else and I would explain why I.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:07:03] The parallels that you draw between your, your life as a mother and your life as a a business owner are incredible. Throughout the book, there's this constant, um, propelling motion. Can you tell us more about what those lessons were? Because you, you could transfer your lessons from motherhood to work and vice versa.
Margery Kraus: [00:07:23] My mother always used to say, where there's a will, there's a way. And so I think one thing I learned is that to be an entrepreneur you have to really will things to happen and not taking no for an answer. Figuring out the how do get to yes. One of the funnier, it wasn't funny when it happened, but one of the funny chapters as I look back was the one that says, stop whining.
Or No whining.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:07:46] Yes. No whining .
Margery Kraus: [00:07:48] Yes. And so for me, I said, okay, I broke this rule , because it was all about raising capital and the way you get treated as a woman, especially in the years I was doing this when you go out to get capital. And so I had plenty to whine about, and I did whine, it almost killed me at one point.
But, um, I, I do think it's important looking back on that, that you learn to be a little tougher and you learn this isn't personal. .
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:08:17] Yes. And, and you started working in the 1960s and you were already a mom and you were working at a time where it wasn't necessarily popular or you were, people were telling you things about the fact that you were a mom and you were also working. Was that difficult for you?
Margery Kraus: [00:08:34] Um, that might be an understatement. There were a few things that were hard. I think one was that, um, society wasn't ready for any kind of change in roles, I guess you'd say, between men and women. And I'm married to the same person for 57 years, so he was very self-confidence. So if he went to the parent-teacher conference and he was the only guy in the room, it didn't bother him. If he ended up doing the food shopping and, you know, helping out, it didn't bother him really. And it was a partnership and I think he got a lot out of it because the children certainly at that time, you know, saw him. We were, we were, um, kind of interchangeable except for certain things that your kids wanted discuss. Some were better for him, some were better for me, the pressure that was external to this, um, did not help. People asking why, you know, I never did carpools or, you know, things of that sort, which made them feel kind of badly. But I think in general what it did is it brought us much closer as a family and we were each other's support system. I couldn't have done this without my kids and my husband.
And, you know, the kids learn to be very independent so that when they left the house, they were actually a lot more competent to be on their own, which was a gift that I didn't. All those years of feeling guilty, I never realized I was actually helping.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:10:03] And it seems to me that it would ground children in some reality that mom or dad aren't always gonna do exactly what you expect them to do. And they're human. They have priorities and obligations too. And, um, it helps your children grow up in a, in a more realistic way, I guess.
Margery Kraus: [00:10:21] I think, um, it also, Lets them know maybe, um, that you have to be responsible and accountable for certain things in life. And it's not always convenient. Um, but you know, I think they're all life lessons. And I've really, I think I'm, you know, grandchildren, well, I, the kids have a sign on the wall that it's your gift for not killing your kids. Um, but I think it's more, I think, I think it's more than that. Um, and, um, you know, I, I think that you're more relaxed with your grandchildren, so, you know, you get to enjoy it more.
And I, I think some of my greatest. In my working life too, have been to be able to include them in things that I've done with my family. We would have family meetings. I mean, we would, communication was really the center of this, and I would do things that we would think of together. And one of those things ended up being that when my kids were 10, I took them on a business trip and I did it, uh, used 10 years old because then I could take at an excuse to take one at a time, knowing the other two would know their time would come. . And so we went to Colorado and they saw the Rocky Mountains and they went to work with me. And uh, I think they learned that work was work and uh, they were very proud.
In fact, at one point, my son, who's the middle child, I had to give a speech.And at the end of his speech he was like in the front row, he jumped up in his chair and he starts applauding . And it was, it was cute, but it was really embarrassing too. But, you know, it, it really, I think gave them a sense that, uh, I was doing things that people appreciated and were important and I think it was a good life lesson.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:12:15] Absolutely. You know, when you're a child and someone, an adult takes you on a, on a journey somewhere, if you're at an age where you can remember, like those memories have been formed, you'll never forget that trip. My parents took us to Greece when we were 11, and I still remember the smells in the village.
It's a combination of jasmine trees and goat poop. I don't know how else to explain it.
Margery Kraus: [00:12:37] But you know that, that's so true because when my youngest grandchild was nine, my oldest grandchild was nine. Her name's Nina. She, she called me and she said, I'm gonna be 10 on my next. And it had been 31 years since her mother's 10 year old trip.
And her mother was never the kind of person that would say "that was fantastic." You know? Um, she just absorbed it, I guess. And, uh, so I, she said, I'm gonna be 10 on my next birthday. I say, well, Nina, that's what happens after you're nine, you know? And she goes, no, it's time for my 10 year old trip. And I was so taken aback that I was, I was speechless.
And she said, and I can't decide if I wanna go to Russia or China. That's because that's where I, what I was doing at the time. And so, um, I said, your mother went to Colorado and she said that times had changed.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:13:28] And I think it's interesting that you, you make them do some research right before they go on this trip.
Margery Kraus: [00:13:33] Yes. Yeah. They have to just, I got more and, uh, more sophisticated as we went. So with Nina, we negotiated, we went to London and we did all kinds of great things, but by the third or fourth trip, you know, they were researching where they wanted to go. They were justifying it. They were coming back and doing presentations to their cousins.
They would conspire with each other. So they each, they would do one up on the the next one. Um, so, Uh, it's, it, it's been a really interesting whole part of their life.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:14:11] And I got a strong sense from the book that, um, you did have a supportive husband and children that allowed you to move forward in whatever next decisions were happening in your career.
Margery Kraus: [00:14:21] Well, you know, I never, I mean, this is gonna sound terrible on a program when we're talking about women's empowerment, but you know, my parents were both born in Poland.
My mother was raised in Cuba. Uh, she went to Cuba when she was like four, and her siblings were born in Cuba. So, you know, the Spanish culture, um, really does put the husband, the father at the center of the universe of the family. And it was difficult, I think, for my mother to kind of see this daughter who's like defying all the rules.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:14:57] One beautiful sentence that you used, and I'm gonna ask you about it, is to learn to dance between the raindrops. Uh, and you refer to this while you were traveling with a, a semi-pro football team, and it was just a description of how you learned to manage being a female, but in a male dominated environment.
It's a really well described sentence. I want you to tell me more about that.
Margery Kraus: [00:15:22] Well, it's kind of funny to even think back on. You, were in this small town, it was a mining town, and when the mines closed, the uh, miners used to play football for recreation and they were, um, they were really good and it was camaraderie and everything else.
And my dad used to announce the games. So I used to, um, spot for the team. I was a young lady, one might say, and you know, these were pretty aggressive people. And I think learning to befriend the players and, uh, walk that fine line between getting their respect, but also being, you know, physically at attracted or physically attractive, I think was dancing between raindrops at times because.
Um, if my father ever knew some of the things that were said to me, he would've taken me off that plane in two seconds, but you know, that's how you grow up. And it did teach me a lot about handling myself. Um, it made, it made coming to Washington and dealing with the establishment in Washington, actually pretty easy by comparison.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:16:32] Yeah, because even in Washington in the 60's and 70's, I imagine you were one of the only women working within a group of men who were in law firms and government positions. Tell me about the perspective that you had when you walked into these board meetings with men, and how were you treated and how did you feel?
Was there a crisis of confidence at any point?
Margery Kraus: [00:16:54] Well, there were, there was a little bit of all of that, but I think how you, how you handle yourself is so much a part of how successful you can be in moments like that. So like, I always wanted to be the most prepared one in the room or have the best idea, even though a lot of other people take credit for your, I, you know, you know, the old adage if a woman says something, it's, it's okay, and then the next person says it. The guy says it, and they say, oh, what a great idea. You know, um, I tell all the guys at APCO when that happens, they should stand up and say, oh, but she just said that, um, to try to help their female colleagues.
If I was gonna be the only woman in the room I wanted, I knew I would be remembered because I didn't look like everyone else. But I wanted to be remembered as somebody who really added a lot to the meeting. Uh, because I thought it was really important not to just sit there. And also I had an opportunity to be distinct from everybody else.
I wanted to be distinct for the right reasons. Um, and so that was my attitude. And then a little bit later when APCO started and we were part of Arnold and Porter, which, you know, had all these very highly trained and educated lawyers from a lot of famous schools. And I grew up in this little town. Um, I just realized one day that I was my own worst enemy when I doubted myself and I was helping my son with his homework one day.
And we came across this quote from Eleanor Roosevelt that nobody can make you feel inferior without your own consent.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:18:32] Wow.
Margery Kraus: [00:18:32] And through my whole life, every time I kind of walk in that room and gasp, um, I think about it because it's true. Nobody can make you feel inferior without your own consent. And one reason I wrote the book actually is that I wanted to make it safe for other women to, um, or especially young girls to talk about, to be able to talk about bringing their whole self to work.
And what you do at home and what you learn at home is really important to the workplace. It defines how use your time and how you relate to people. Um, how you create values and all those things, and I thought that it's, what a shame that we've made that for so long, something that nobody should talk about.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:19:18] There are, uh, lessons that we learned through our family life that we can then transpose onto work life. And what you were saying about your, your son, does it go full circle from what you experienced with your father working with him?
Margery Kraus: [00:19:32] My, my parents had. We lived in a town of 3000 people. In fact, my school was K through 12 in one building.
What I learned from my father is he had kind of the general store in town, so it was like a mini department store, really small. But, um, it, it's where everybody shopped and there were relationships that were built because my dad, that was before credit cards. You know, my dad did a lot of things on a handshake, or we'd have this file with what everybody owed and you'd add to it, and then you'd take away from it or whatever.
And it wasn't until he died, I think that this lesson was driven home. And maybe I was intuitive, I just took it for granted. But, people would say, you know, I would never have gotten married if it wasn't for your dad. I said, what do you mean? They said, well, I needed to buy an engagement ring and I had no money, and...
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:20:27] Oh, wow.
Margery Kraus: [00:20:28] Yeah. Things like that. And you just, you know, they bring tears to your eyes because you never realized the power of relationships. And I think that was the most important lesson I learned from my dad because the business was different and hard work. I mean, that business was open 6 days a week for 12 hours a day, and that's why we all participated in working in the store from the time we could see over the counter, you know, that was an important part of my life, an important part of my, uh, experience.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:21:04] I'm gonna switch gears a little bit and get back more into, cause it's so fascinating by the way, I love talking about all the family aspect and things, but I do wanna focus a little bit also on APCO. And you were, um, chosen, I guess, by some of the seniors at A and P?
Margery Kraus: [00:21:21] So, um, there were a group of partners at Arnold and Porter, um, that did more project development, I guess, than practicing law.
So they did really creative, innovative things and like, um, affordable housing, uh, at universities or they were involved. Helping set up the National Captioning Institute when they worked for PBS. And so, um, I met the person who was the lead attorney doing that, and one thing kind of led to another. It took me a long time to decide to leave, and you talk about family influence. I, when I was with Close Up, which I helped start, which is this program for high school students to learn about government and politics. By coming to Washington, it's now had a million kids. It's a fabulous program and, um, so I felt like I was leaving family. I mean, 14 years there, I helped start it.
I had a lot of people working for me. I was only 38 at the time. And, and, um, I was driving my son to school one day and he's, he was in high school at that time and, um, he said, You know, mom, I don't know why you're agonizing about this. If you really wanna do it, just go. And, um, when I went to Arnold and Porter, um, this group of partners, every project they did was maybe 20% legal work and the rest was non-legal and they would assemble non-legal professionals each time they were doing a big project like that.
And they decided that it would be great to have a consulting affiliate where they could aggregate talented non-legal professionals to be partners with them in these projects. And that's how this started. And, um, they came to me, um, and asked if I would put this together and run it. And I had people who actually did say, no offense, but why you?
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:23:12] Oh really?
Margery Kraus: [00:23:13] Oh yeah. Because, you know, I think when you work in the not-for-profit world, they don't realize that all the things you've done to build an organization, uh, which was a startup which became a very successful educational foundation. It was quite funny that, but people actually said that to me. Yes.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:23:33] Um, well you sure you sure showed them .
Margery Kraus: [00:23:37] Well, you know, operating out of fear is one way to get the job done.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:23:43] Absolutely. I, when I registered my company, the guy told me at the, at the little counter there, He stamped my papers and he said, good luck to you, little girl. Uh, after, um, 50% of people fail after two years and he hands over the papers, I'm like, well, I'm not gonna be one of them.
And I walked away.
Margery Kraus: [00:23:59] Right. Exactly.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:23:59] That was the kick in the pants. Right?
Margery Kraus: [00:24:01] You know, I do think you, you have to, um, you have to. You can't, you have to thick skin in a way. You, you can't, just like you did Katherin. I, you know, and I really respect that. It's like if you have a, a passion, if you have a, a, a vision for what you wanna do, um, and you have the, the fortitude, I guess, to take it forward.
I, I mean, the worst that can happen is you do fail and what did you learn from it? But I've always turned it on its head. I think one of the things I learned the most, which I hope everybody, not just women listening, is that, uh, to never underestimate the power of being underestimated. And I think that for me, that has been my lifeblood in a way that every time I got patted on the head or you know, sent away a little girl, you know, just gives you that much more. Fortitude to do this.
When I got there, I realized there wasn't really a business plan and there wasn't a client base. Um, and I had left at this time. Uh, Close Up had, like I was, I had 200 people working for me, so it was quite a shock to be. Uh, in a place and have a half a secretary and a mission and no resources. So, um, little by little I kind of figured out that, um, I should do what I'm good at doing.
And uh, and I really was good at connecting dots and solving problems. And so APCO became this place very, with taking on these very eclectic things where we help solve problems. That's how it started. And it was just me. And then the Washington office grew to eventually to 20 people, but it took me 7 years to do that.
So it wasn't like this was automatic. When you think about APCO today with a thousand people, um, the first seven years was tough and I realized that doing this inside another company is very hard, especially a law firm with its own rules and regulations. And when we, you know, in 2004 we did a management buyout of the shares of our company from, at that point we were affiliated with this public company and they hired an investment banker.
And I said right from the beginning that I'm gonna do a management buyout. And they kind of laughed at me like, you know, you have to raise more than 50 cents. And um, and the whole time they paid no attention. At all. And, uh, they thought this was kind of silly. And then they called me up when the, it was, uh, blind bids, you know, and they said, okay, um, this is who you're gonna work for, you know, if we opened the envelopes and blah, blah, blah.
And I said, I don't think so. And they kept getting louder and more ornery about it. And I, I finally said, Did you read my contract? And because they were, so, what'd I wanna say, condescending. I think they never thought to read the contract. My contract had a provision that I had to approve the buyer.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:27:16] Oh, lovely.
Margery Kraus: [00:27:17] Of those shares. Yes. So I just waited it out, and did the management buyout.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:27:24] And for those who don't know what a management buyout is, can you explain that a bit?
Margery Kraus: [00:27:29] Yeah. It, it was just, um, you know, if there was going to be a transaction that changed the ownership of a company, in this case buying the majority shares out of another company, you can buy those. Um, but if the management team in place tries to be the buyer, they have to organize, get the financing, and then make an offer the same way an outside investor would to buy those shares and own those shares. That's why today my company APCO is majority employee owned because we were able to do this buyout.
And while I'm the largest shareholder, I was able to set aside. As people became more, um, senior in the company and more embedded in our future.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:28:13] So you really care about the employees. You care about their happiness within the company, and it's not just about you or about the, the bottom line, there's obviously a lot of care and importance that is given to happy clients, fulfilled staff, and profitable company.
Margery Kraus: [00:28:31] That's my three-legged stool. I said if you pull any one of those legs out, the stool will fall over.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:28:38] Um, let me just ask you quickly, you, you made a comment about a bully in the, in the workplace. I want you to tell me about that and how you dealt with him.
Margery Kraus: [00:28:46] This person is with, with respect now deceased, but, um, he's...
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:28:50] Oh.
Margery Kraus: [00:28:51] Know, he was, um, definitely a big bully.
So one day we were standing in the hall and or in the, this open area and there were a lot of staff around and he was very angry about something like foaming at the mouth. And he started berating me in front of everybody else. So I just pulled him into his office and I said, you know what you just did, you, um, demeaned yourself in front of all those people.
Because they respect me. And after you do that, um, it's really a reflection on you. And so I'm telling you that, and I'm also telling you, if you ever do that again, I'm outta here. So it never happened again.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:29:33] And that makes a lot of sense because when you were describing how you moved forward in your business life, you keep referring to the value of trust and fair treatment in relationships in business.
Tell me more. How that shaped itself. And then were there any disappointments that came out of that?
Margery Kraus: [00:29:53] There were always disappointments that come out of trust because not everybody shares that as a value.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:29:59] Mm-hmm.
Margery Kraus: [00:30:00] Um, but I think for me, I've always done a lot of things on the basis of trusted relationships, and that's been more of a currency for me than in my life than maybe it should be from time to time.
And I think that the place where I was most disappointed is I had an experience, um, when I did a management buyout for APCO and I brought, uh, one of my most trusted and valued friends who was also. A very, um, very good at, um, being fair and equal even handed. And I thought, you know, I brought him on the board and um, and he was the independent director.
And when I got, um, crosshairs with my investors at that point, um, who really tried to take advantage of the situation. They kind of, I won't say they bought him off, but they, um, enticed him in a different direction after 30 years of a friendship. And I, I never, I've never recovered from that fully because I think that at the end of the day, trust is so important.
I couldn't ever imagine doing that in reverse, ever. It just wouldn't have been worth it. I just would never have seen that. Um, so, you know, it's, it's just, it's a hard. Uh, it's a hard lesson to learn, but I did learn from it and it's made me, um, maybe not cynical, but more careful. Um, but I did not see that coming.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:31:35] It's, it's a hard pill to swallow. I think. It does happen.
Margery Kraus: [00:31:38] It's a very hard one, right. It's still, you know. Yeah. I think as I look back on my career and so many wonderful things have happened, and I've built so many trusted relationships that, you know, The ones that don't work that way really do stand out because they're, it's such a contrast to the way you live your life, the kind of relationships you build.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:32:00] But it is a minority, isn't it?
Margery Kraus: [00:32:02] Yes. Thank goodness. . I'm still, I'm still an optimistic person and, um, I think at the end of the day you have to get up and look in the mirror, and I think if you feel comfortable with who you see and what that person, represe. I think that's all you can do and you can't account for.
I learned a long time ago not to obsess over things I can't control and I can't control someone else's behavior.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:32:30] We were talking a lot about APCO and, uh, how you have multiple, um, locations around the world, and you made a point of saying that some of your employees were actually part of international exchange programs, and that's fascinating.
Margery Kraus: [00:32:44] So we ca, I came up with this idea as we were building more offices. I was the one who knew the people in the other countries that it would be great to have more integration. And so we started a program, um, that for the people below a certain level in the company, not the most senior people, but maybe mid-level to junior, that if they wanted to go work in another office, and we formalized it through this exchange program and we made it three weeks.
We thought that was the least discriminatory thing to do. It's, it's enough time that you get a fuel, but not enough time that you lose your status in your own office. And also, uh, for people who were married or if they had other obligations, it was still doable. And in the beginning, APCO had no money. So we had homestays. People actually went and stayed with other people in their home. So you talk about having an exchange, that was quite the experience. But then, um, as it's gotten more professionalized, it's very popular still in the company. And, um, we encourage people to do it because they come back with a much better understanding, not just of that country or that city, but of their, and their colleagues, but of the world.
You just look at things a little differently.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:34:04] And I'm very curious to know from your standpoint, how did it make a difference in the world? Like what's the impact been?
Margery Kraus: [00:34:12] You know, we are a company of very eclectic backgrounds. We have people who came from policy, politics, business, NGOs, and so the idea that there'd be a common way of operating, probably, you know, people or that people would just automatically agree, I think we get a better product through the disagreements we have when we try to do strategy.
What I think has to be aligned are things like mutual respect. About dealing with empathy, about being bold in your solutions. These are some of the values of APCO um, inclusive. I mean, those are things we can all agree on if we don't agree on strategy and tactics. And then if we agree on those things, then coming together to argue about strategy and tactics takes on a whole different thing, because that's in the interest of performing the job.
And we still may not agree on all of it. But I think there's two different levels here of, uh, of engagement that are important. And that's why I think we're better served by having this eclectic group of people working on things that not everybody is single-minded and that, um, there's an environment that allows people to disagree without being disagreeable. My aspiration, I'll say, and as as I've thought about all of this, um, was to create a place where, um, we could solve some of the bigger problems of the world in our own little way. Um, but also people could grow their careers and grow as people, and we could gently nudge our clients to doing things that are in the better interest of the world.
I mean, it was very lofty in a way, but I, I think for the most part we do that. I think, um, one of the things that we're able to do is we serve as a navigation tool for a lot of our clients, we help them kind of navigate the growing complexities of the world to understand other cultures. You can only do that by having what I call a very glocal operation, that you are global in your outlook, but you're very local and understanding what works and doesn't work in a given market.
And I think learning to respect other cultures as part of our principles of operation, it was like, um, while there might be a common solution, how it gets explained and how it gets, um, activated is really a matter of understanding local cultures. The other part of it is the compass of helping companies kind of find their way to purpose and to, to find it in a way that does improve the lives of the, the people that the company serves, all their stakeholders, whether they're employees or whether they're customers. And so I think we're very good at that and um, it makes me very proud when we're able to accomplish things for our clients that, uh, other people thought were impossible.
Katherin Vasilopoulos: [00:37:23] Many thanks to Margery Kraus. Her book "Roots and Wings: 10 Lessons of Motherhood that Helped Me Create and Run A Company" is available wherever you get your books. "And So, She Left" is made by Cansulta and Ethan Lee. We'll be back next Wednesday with a new episode. Music by Chris Zabriskie, edited for your enjoyment.
You can find a list of all the songs you heard here in the episode notes. I'm Katherin Vasilopoulos, and thanks for listening.