Content Warning: this episode contains references to discrimination, xenophobia, and Islamophobia. Nadia Butt grew up in a predominantly white community. Born to Pakistani immigrants near Boston, growing up as someone often perceived as "different" shaped her perception of identity and community. She's faced challenges like navigating Islamophobia after 9/11, which greatly influenced her mission as an adult. Nadia co-hosts the Inclusive Collective Podcast. As a consultant focused on supporting marginalized communities, her work aids companies in integrating diversity, equity, and inclusion (or DEI) into their organizations. In this revealing conversation, Nadia shares personal stories of racial bias, gender, and race disparities she's encountered in the workplace, such as unequal pay. She guides us through the complexities of DEI work, highlighting the three core values which guide her work: learning, community, and identity. As you'll quickly realize, her work reflects one key learning: that acknowledging our differences doesn't have to divide us but can bring us closer together, fostering a more inclusive and equitable environment.
Content Warning: this episode contains references to discrimination, xenophobia, and Islamophobia.
Nadia Butt grew up in a predominantly white community.
Born to Pakistani immigrants near Boston, growing up as someone often perceived as "different" shaped her perception of identity and community. She's faced challenges like navigating Islamophobia after 9/11, which greatly influenced her mission as an adult.
Nadia co-hosts the Inclusive Collective Podcast, and is the principal consultant at Naz Consulting. Their work focuses on supporting marginalized communities, aiding companies in integrating diversity, equity, and inclusion (or DEI) into their organizations.
In this revealing conversation, Nadia shares personal stories of racial bias, gender, and race disparities she's encountered in the workplace, such as unequal pay. She guides us through the complexities of DEI work, highlighting the three core values which guide her work: learning, community, and identity. As you'll quickly realize, her work reflects one key learning: that acknowledging our differences doesn't have to divide us but can bring us closer together, fostering a more inclusive and equitable environment.
Listen to the Inclusive Collective podcast. Learn more about Nadia and her consulting work.
We'd love to hear your feedback!
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In this episode, we cover:
Quote of the Week:
“We can call diversity, equity, [and] inclusion whatever we want to call it, but it really is just showing up and treating people with dignity and respect." - Nadia Butt
Hosted by Katherin Vasilopoulos. Made by Cansulta and Ethan Lee.
Music by © Chris Zabriskie, published by You've Been a Wonderful Laugh Track (ASCAP).
Songs used in this episode include: "Air Hockey Saloon," "Cylinder Nine," "It Will Make You Feel Better If You Put It In the Right Place" "Short Song 030223," "Short Song 022523," "Where Have All The Cybertrackers Gone?" "Short Song 030423," "And It Is There, In Those Depths," "Short Song 012623," "Cylinder Four," "Short Song 030723,"
Used under the Creative Commons 4.0 International License
[00:00:00.250] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
Hi, I'm Katherin Vasilopoulos. Starting my own venture wasn't easy. After a decade working in the corporate world, I realized that so many things were out of my control, like layoffs and changes in direction. I didn't like the instability. I didn't want that to define my whole career and professional story. And so I left. I started my own company and achieved more than I ever imagined. Now I'm on a mission to share stories from extraordinary entrepreneurs who are changing the world and who never gave up on their vision.
[00:00:39.630] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
Sometimes the way we're perceived by others doesn't reflect our true value, and sometimes a conversation about our differences can be the catalyst we need to start changing hearts and minds in the workplace and in communities. This awareness of our differences can hopefully start shaping a mindset of richness rather than division. Nadia Butt, host of the Inclusive Collective Podcast, was born and raised near Boston to Pakistani immigrants. She grew up in a predominantly white community, and the challenges of finding identity, seeking community, and navigating Islamophobia after 9/11 impacted her deeply. When she started working, she made it her mission to empower others who faced similar challenges. With her consulting company, she's helped to support marginalized communities and assist entrepreneurs in embedding diversity, equity, and inclusion, also referred to as DEI, within their organizations. In our thoughtful conversation, Nadia emphasizes the importance of self reflection and embracing differences. She shares personal stories of racial bias and the disparities she's observed in the workplace, such as unequal pay based on characteristics such as gender and race. Throughout it all, Nadia provides insights into the complexities of DEI work, explaining the three core values of DEI work learning, community, and identity.
[00:02:09.690] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
Hi, Nadia.
[00:02:11.290] - Nadia Butt
Hello.
[00:02:12.650] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
Hello. Nice to meet you. And thank you so much for agreeing to be part of this episode. Very thrilled to meet you and to be able to have this conversation with you.
[00:02:22.060] - Nadia Butt
Same here. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here and really happy to meet you.
[00:02:27.010] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
So you are the host of a podcast called Inclusive Collective, is that right?
[00:02:32.790] - Nadia Butt
That's correct, yes.
[00:02:34.130] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
Can you tell me a bit more about what that is, and the mission of this podcast is?
[00:02:39.240] - Nadia Butt
Yeah, absolutely. So, Inclusive Collective podcast is a podcast where we talk about the intricacies of diversity, equity, inclusion in the business world. So I'm one of the co hosts. The other co host is Rob Hadley. And we kind of came about this idea. Oh, gosh. It originated out of actually a consulting gig that we both had for the Mars Corporation and their Accelerator Incubator program for their founders. And what we realized and recognized through conversations with some of these founders and entrepreneurs was that they didn't have the resources or probably even the time or network to really thoughtfully engage or embed some of the DEI practices into the organization. And so Rob and I were like, oh, how do we better support. There's so many right now, especially with this gig economy, there's so many founders and entrepreneurs that might be looking for support.
[00:03:41.830] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
How did you develop an interest in DEI? And tell us a bit more about your professional background.
[00:03:49.290] - Nadia Butt
Yeah, absolutely. So there's three values that I really bring to the table that I deeply are passionate about, which is learning, community, and identity. And you'll hear me kind of talk or touch upon these three things throughout. So previously, I worked for two Fortune 500 companies. The first one was a leading insurance company based here in Boston, and I joined them soon after I graduated from university at a young age, and I was there for 15 years. I learned so much, I gained so many skill sets and experiences there. Providing communication, how managers do performance evaluations, coaching conversations, how to give and receive feedback. All of these things to me really align to diversity, inclusion, but also leadership development work. So that's the work that I am really focused on right now, situational leadership, leading with humility. And so part of my responsibility at this first company that I worked at for 15 years was embedding the DEI practices and principles into the behavioral frameworks. I have a background in change management, particularly change for teams and coaching managers on change and what to expect. As we all know, change is really hard. The second organization that I worked for was a leading healthcare company, and I spent a short time there just two years.
[00:05:12.550] - Nadia Butt
I had an okay experience with them. Not the best leadership. I observed a lot of behaviors that didn't line to my own values or even the express values of the organization. It's interesting because from both of those organizations, I was actually laid off.
[00:05:27.880] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
Oh, really?
[00:05:28.820] - Nadia Butt
Yeah. I was provided severance time. And at the time when you're laid off, I'm sure other people can relate, but the first time I was laid off, it was a blessing in disguise. Like, at first it was a sudden shock because the way that I was laid off and many of my other colleagues, it was an organizational kind of department wide layoff. And so there was 25 plus folks that were laid off at the same time. And the way that it was done, they thought there was communication, but it ended up being a lack of communication. It was over a two month period of time. People were just really fearful of, am I going to lose my job? Do I have something to fall back on? First, I was presented a severance package, and then I was presented an opportunity to apply to one of the new roles that they had created.
[00:06:13.950] - Nadia Butt
And I decided to actually take the severance package. It was time for me to leave. It's time for me to do something different. I wasn't anticipating it, but I wasn't as shocked as the first layoff, probably because I was ready. Like, all right, I've done this before, I can do it again. And so when I was laid off from these organizations and provided severance, it really both of those times forced me to actually pause and kind of adjust. It gave me time to think about what do I really want to do? I knew I wanted to make a change in a more impactful way. And so that led me to my consulting business right now, which is Naz Consulting. So I'm founder and principal consultant and we focus on leadership development, strategy and planning and coaching.
[00:07:00.030] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
You did a lot.
[00:07:03.750] - Nadia Butt
Yeah. And that's it's interesting because sorry to interrupt, Katherin, but that's just, yeah. There's so much about of course, all of us have our own identities, kind of what brings you to even your professional life? Should I dive into that?
[00:07:20.540] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
That's what I was going to ask you next, is because you come at it with a personal point of view as well, which probably informed a lot of your choices and your decision to now do what you're doing currently. So tell me more about your ethnic background and your parents, your childhood and the identity that comes with all that.
[00:07:42.290] - Nadia Butt
Yeah, of course. So I was born and raised in the US in a small suburban town 15 miles north of Boston. I'm a daughter of Pakistani immigrants. I identify as Muslim. I'm a sister and I'm a recent auntie. My brother and his wife just had a baby, an auntie to a four mother. I know.
[00:08:00.590] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
Congratulations.
[00:08:01.650] - Nadia Butt
Thank you. So I grew up in a predominantly white town. Our family is probably one of maybe three Muslim families, maybe one of maybe six South Asian families. Like, very, very small. And looking back, I do think that this is a big piece of what informed my identity. I'm going to put this in quotes. So I was normal. I played sports. My parents, every Sunday took us to Sunday school, which was the Quincy Mosque. I feel like I found community in high school or in grade school with sports and, of course, just being in school. And then I found a different world every Sunday finding community at the Quincy Mosque, which was an hour drive south of the city. And there it was like this racial and ethnic diversity that I just didn't see Monday through Friday.
[00:08:53.070] - Nadia Butt
And so I remember when I was growing up, I was friends with a person who was Jewish and a friend that was Greek Orthodox. And I was encouraged by my parents to visit my Jewish friend's temple and my Greek Orthodox friend's church. And I'm forever grateful to my parents for that, their open mindedness and their willingness for me to push me to go and learn and grow by observing different faiths and cultural differences. I don't know if that's necessarily the case for every single person I grew up with. I think I was different in that way.
[00:09:20.260] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
That's brilliant. Thank you, mom. And dad, that was really yeah, right?
[00:09:24.000] - Nadia Butt
Yeah, it was incredible. And it's powerful because I don't think I appreciated it then, but now, looking back, I'm like, it was great. It gave me such a profound respect for people who are just different from me. And I came from a really small bubble, so it made my bubble a little bit bigger. But I also was just different. I was brown, I was Muslim. My parents, obviously, they spoke English at home, but they also spoke Urdu, and you know, when I went to university, which was much more diverse and a liberal campus, I became part of the Muslim Student Association, the South Asian Student Association. So my network grew, and I was friends with people of different backgrounds and friends of different ethnicities and races. And this gave me perspective, of course, as well. And I think it was then that it changed my worldview. I think it opened myself up to different people, different world perspectives, different worldviews of how other people see the world. I think it's also worth mentioning that when I was at university, it was at a time on campus during 9/11. And so I had roommates questioning Islam or asking me, like, well, why do you believe in a religion that promotes terrorism?
[00:10:36.950] - Nadia Butt
And of course, you're sitting there having to explain, well, that's not the case. My religion is really beautiful and full of love. I remember having a professor telling me my senior year when I went on job interviews, to do as much as possible not to indicate that I was Muslim or Pakistani. And that was, of course, because of the intense, extreme Islamophobia that was happening. I remember even going to, like, an off campus party where people are chanting, Kill all Muslims.
[00:11:04.450] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
How did you feel when you were encountering this?
[00:11:07.400] - Nadia Butt
Yeah, I mean, it was scary, right? Because in many ways I was fortunate because I'm not visibly Muslim. I don't wear the headscarf, I'm not wearing kind of ethnic clothes, but it's very scary. And so I remember my friend had to kind of walk me home from that party because I was just so shocked. And it was soon after 9/11, but it happened for many months after that. I mean, even years. Our Muslim Student Association office was vandalized on campus. I remember my dad even calling me a few weeks after 9/11 happened, and I had, like, this Pakistani decal flag on my car. And he called and he said, I just think you should remove it from the car. And I did. It was an intense time. And it's interesting because you fast forward however many years later, and now I'm in the workplace and there's still an uprising of even more hate, more Islamophobia. You have the Trump's Muslim ban that was put in place in 2017, right? So this extreme xenophobia against anyone who, quote unquote, might look different. And so just even recently in 2016, I was walking out of the mall with my parents, and two men that were walking in front of us turned around and yelled, Go home, you effing immigrants.
[00:12:24.970] - Nadia Butt
Oh my gosh. It's not even just me experiencing this, but like, my family, my friends experiencing all this hate. And of course, it's not just Muslims, right? It's the uprising of all the phobias. It's like xenophobia, homophobia, anti-Semitism. It was terrible. So all of these things, these experiences, even though they're terrible, and they've made a really great impact on kind of my personal professional desires. And so when I did start my consulting company, I knew I wanted to focus on diversity, equity, inclusion work. But from the lens of change management, from the lens of continuous improvement, from an organizational perspective.
[00:13:06.010] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
What did you have to tell yourself, though, to surmount that?
[00:13:11.390] - Nadia Butt
Oh, yeah, that's a great question. You bring your authentic self to work and you share your stories and you remind yourself of why you're doing this work. And it's really to make change. And if I can change just one mindset or influence one mindset, then I feel like I've done my job. What I always say is people are a product of their environment. I study social identity theory, and our environment really influences what we believe, how we see the world, our experiences. And so because of that, I have to pause a lot and reflect and do some introspective work. And I do hope that that also applies to other folks, but it doesn't. And so there are times where you run into folks in organizations or in communities where they're not willing to change, they're not ready to change. But if you can even reach that one person that can do some reflection and introspective work to embrace differences, then I do feel like I've done my job.
[00:14:16.950] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
Yeah, it's the beginning of a conversation, even maybe in their own head after they walk away from talking to you. And then it's starting to see something differently than what they thought was before. Tend to stick to people they know, to the familiarity and the commonality, and anything different may be considered fearful or something to hate. It's easy to do that. I think you mentioned something earlier, leading with humility. I wanted to go back to that because that intrigued me. I want to learn more about that.
[00:14:51.130] - Nadia Butt
What does that mean when you ask that question, like, tell me about leading with humility. I mean, that encompasses so many things, but it's one of kind of the phases for behavioral change that I believe in. So Ed Shine, who recently passed away, he was a professor and really thought leader in this world. He's from MIT and he focused a lot on change. But also just like Leading with Humility, he wrote this book called Humble Inquiry. The book was really about how leaders can show up by having more inquiry. And so when I think of phases for behavioral change. I think considerations for productive environments have to include introspection. They have to include reflection, especially because decisions have bias in them, conversations have bias in them. And so when you're showing up with humility and you're asking questions, you're seeking to understand, you're seeking to really learn and grow, I think that's really powerful. And I do want to touch upon kind of I had mentioned earlier these three components of learning community and identity. And when I think of learning today, people think DEI work right now is training, or any sort of leadership building is training.
[00:16:08.970] - Nadia Butt
And yeah, of course that's a component and awareness building. But DEI can't just be training, right? It has to be kind of experiential. It has to be parts of mentorship. It has to be transformational. People learn in different forms, in different paces and different modes. Right?
[00:16:26.400] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
Right.
[00:16:26.780] - Nadia Butt
There's different styles and preferences and self directed learning. Or it's the ability to draw on your lived experiences to assist with the learning I mentioned, there's like this deep introspective and reflection work. There has to be a willingness to want to learn, and then the willingness and the ability to be able to practice and apply what you learned. And then we have to recognize that there's different learning styles and there's folks that are neurodivergent and there are people living with disabilities, and we have to accommodate that learning. And the reason why I bring up learning, as you asked this question about leading with humility, all of that pertains to it because it's this growth mindset of inquiry that I think is missing, not just at the leadership or management level, but every person, every employee, every community member. And then when I think about community, I've always believed in community. At a very young age, like I mentioned, I played on sports teams or I went to the mosque. That was my South Asian community. And then in college, I was part of all of these associations. Finding community as an adult, I think, can be really challenging for people, especially if you're perhaps say like an introvert.
[00:17:39.500] - Nadia Butt
I do believe that the more you interact and engage and inquire about people and their differences, I think the more you become aware of your biases and you can start to mitigate them.
[00:17:53.270] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
What kind of biases have you seen people exhibit?
[00:17:58.790] - Nadia Butt
I mean, for me personally, I guess for me personally, I've experienced kind of racial bias and Islamophobia, like I had mentioned before, but in the workplace, what I observe, I've definitely observed gender disparities and biases with pay between male and female. I've observed biases, even racially, between black employees and white employees in areas where you would not even think that bias exists, for example, mentorship programs or career advancement opportunities. There's more biases that we'll typically see between men and women and then, of course, between people of color and white people. And it's so evident when you track that data and you kind of do an audit around the advancement of those people and those opportunities, you'll see that it's very evident, very clear. It's very few organizations that have actually nailed that. And I say this every day to managers and leaders that I work with, is that most of the biases that show up in your decision making, in your everyday interpersonal interactions. And so what that means is whenever you make a decision, whether you're a leader or you're a manager, you have to do some introspective work, some humble inquiry, and some reflection to understand if you've mitigated all of the biases that you could have potentially mitigated.
[00:19:22.610] - Nadia Butt
And then, of course, like this third piece of identity, right? Like this amalgamation of all these things, like your memories, your experiences, your relationships, the environments that you're in, that's all your identity, the values, your beliefs, your upbringing, your worldview, all of these things make up your sense of self. I truly believe to do identity work, like I said, takes this deep introspection, deep reflection work and time, and it goes far beyond what your physical demographics are like your race or your gender. It's really reflecting on who you are, what you value, how you see yourself in the world, and how you see others. And so I do believe that these three values are interconnected. And being able to reflect on your identity, taking the opportunity to be in community and having that growth mindset and curiosity and learning and leading with humility will help you recognize your biases. Probably far greater than an elearning course on unconscious bias, which those are great, too, but I think we need to go beyond that type of workshop and that type of training.
[00:20:29.240] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
And that's what I was thinking about when you first brought up the topic of learning is, yes, we do have employee sensitization videos or Elearning modules that they can listen to, but ultimately it's about experiencing it and having one on one conversations or group discussions or encounters with someone that are impromptu and that force you to go, oh, maybe I could have handled that a little bit differently. Or I should have said it another way. You can't learn that by just watching a video. You have to go through it, and it's by seeing the other person's reaction sometimes that we go, oh, whoops, I misspoke, or that was a bit gauche, or whatever the issue is. And so do you think it's up to individual employees to bring this up to their managers? Or it should be the company's value system that already has those things in place for people then to be ushered into it, so to speak?
[00:21:26.430] - Nadia Butt
It's a great question. Absolutely. I think the organization has accountability to provide kind of all the different types of learning opportunities and modes to their employees and experiences. I think when we consider the challenges to adult learning, there's time, there's confidence, and there's money. Those are all kind of the three challenges. And so if you don't allocate the time to your employees to be able to learn, they're never going to learn. The confidence is interesting because I think the confidence comes from a willingness, it comes from a skill set, it comes from even being given the opportunity and the desire to want to learn and then, of course, the money. So if the organization doesn't have the budget for their employees to go and learn, then oftentimes the employee won't go learn or they'll pay for it on their own and then end up leaving the company. And so I think it's important for employers to allocate that budget for professional development opportunities. But I do think that there's an accountability on the employee as well. I do think there's opportunities for the individual to kind of bring to their coaching conversations with their manager and say, I'm looking to grow.
[00:22:39.200] - Nadia Butt
I don't know what that looks like, but I need help, and maybe I need a mentor that's in my field. They may not know exactly what track they want to go on, but that's the conversation that they could be having with either their mentor or with their manager.
[00:22:54.960] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
That's very well said. It's so important to align yourself with someone with more experience who can be your champion, your cheerleader. But what was your experience before meeting the mentors? And what was your journey like in those companies that you worked at? Did you need some assistance with anything or did you have some identity crisis at some point?
[00:23:18.510] - Nadia Butt
Quite a number of identity crises, that's for sure. Yeah, I think professionally speaking, I've had managers who really had no desire to help me advance my career. They didn't provide the coaching conversations that I think at the time didn't know I needed. But when I reflect back now, I'm like, I wish they'd given them to me. It was almost as if they didn't have interest in getting to understand what my professional or personal goals were. I've absolutely experienced that. I've experienced reorganizations. Many of my managers having to make those tough decisions of letting go other people, it's disorganized, it's chaotic. It's done in inhumane ways at times.
[00:24:00.270] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
And how do you feel when that's happening?
[00:24:02.480] - Nadia Butt
Oh, it's terrible. I mean, my first layoff, I'm not going to go into severe detail, but it was done in a way where everyone for two months was like, what's going on? What did you hear? When do you think it's going to happen? Because there was announcement made that changes are coming, there's going to be a change. And for two months, there's this lack of communication and this chaos that ensues. You're playing with people's lives. You're playing with people's families and income. And I know when I walked in that day that they were starting to lay everyone off, this might sound super melancholy, we all just started laughing. We're like, yeah. They were literally handpicking people not handpicking, but they had previously handpicked people and every kind of half hour on the half hour, they would literally pull one person up and be like, okay, here's your severance package. And you'd walk back to your desk and you would literally look around and be like, did you get laid off? Did you get laid off? And 75% to 80% of the people were laid off and the other survivors had this massive survivor guilt
[00:25:11.100] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
And have to walk into the office and look a bunch of cubicles that are empty that used to be full of colleagues that they liked or-
[00:25:18.400] - Nadia Butt
Totally. I mean, one of them was my best friends and I remember driving home with her the day that I got let go and she didn't. And she was just like, I don't want to make this about me at all, but what am I going to do without you? This is terrible. And it's like, yeah, you form these relationships and bonds with these people who basically become your family in the workplace and you do feel like you're treated like a number after you've provided all of this loyalty to an organization. But at the end of the day, like I said, it's a blessing in disguise because even though something negative was the outcome, I actually believe for me it was the relationships that I built and then network and those long lasting friendships and many of the opportunities and experiences and skill sets that I gained throughout. So I don't look back on it as a negative time in my life. I look at it as like such an opportunity and how it kind of jump started to the next few things in my life and kind of where I've landed today.
[00:26:18.010] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
That's amazing. What a great attitude to have, because some people walk away from layoffs and they are devastated and it just leaves them bitter. And as you said, the key word is loyalty. You have this loyalty towards the company and then they treat you like a number. So you definitely saw this as an opportunity to jump from one thing to the next and it opened up the next door for the next phase of your life. That's the only way to look at it, really. So anyone going through a layoff right now, if you're listening, it's okay. It'll be okay.
[00:26:48.980] - Nadia Butt
Yeah.
[00:26:50.290] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
So let me ask you one last thing then. Where do you hope things will go in the dei space?
[00:26:59.350] - Nadia Butt
I hope that.
[00:27:03.990] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
It's okay to get emotional. We always do on the show.
[00:27:07.770] - Nadia Butt
I hope that leaders continue to see the value in embedding, diversity, equity, inclusion into everyday practices and behaviors and that there's accountability and that goals are aligned to organizational priorities. At the end of the day, we can call diversity, equity and inclusion, whatever we want to call it, but it really is just showing up and treating people with dignity and respect. I do believe that we are seeing incremental change. I see it in my consulting practice every day. I do fear, though, that it will not remain as a priority because we've managed to kind of separate De and I from organizational strategic departments instead. It should really be just embedded into the culture. We're headed in the right direction and I do see some bumps in the road. I will continuously be advocating for this work.
[00:28:15.950] - Katherin Vasilopoulos
Thank you so much to Nadia Butt for joining us today. You can learn more about the Inclusive Collective podcast through the link in the episode description. If you enjoyed these stories, we would love it if you could please rate, review and subscribe to And So, She Left wherever you listen. Your feedback helps us to better serve current listeners and reach new ones. Well, to make it even easier, we're launching a quick feedback form. It's just five questions long, and it would help us immensely if you could please take a few minutes to fill it out. Your responses directly impact the creation of the show, and we want to make the show that you want to hear. And so she left is made by Cansulta and Ethan Lee. We'll be back next Wednesday with a new episode. Our music is by Chris Zabriskie, edited for your enjoyment. You can find a list of all the songs you heard here in the episode notes. I'm Katherin Vasilopoulos, and thanks for listening.