Constriction and guidance are the two sides to the feedback coin. But sometimes, we have to squint to tell which is which. Can you? As a clinical psychologist, Cindy Wahler faced constant doubt. She was told that she’d never make it. But today, she uses her understanding of psychology to consult for organizations like Ralph Lauren, Exxon Mobile, and Toyota on effective leadership development. She also bakes cookies. Cindy started Bite Me Cookies back in 2021. Once again, she was swarmed by naysayers. But a few years later, Bite Me Cookies has become something of a Torontonian phenomenon, with over 20 varieties of cookies on offer and expansions into other deserts like pies and hot chocolate. You’re about to hear Cindy’s best advice on receiving feedback as a leader. She breaks down different kinds of feedback, how they can either help or hinder you, and plenty of practical tips on how to pivot based on the feedback you receive.
Constriction and guidance are the two sides to the feedback coin. But sometimes, we have to squint to tell which is which. Can you?
As a clinical psychologist, Cindy Wahler faced constant doubt. She was told that she’d never make it. But today, she uses her understanding of psychology to consult for organizations like Ralph Lauren, Exxon Mobile, and Toyota on effective leadership development.
She also bakes cookies.
Cindy started Bite Me Cookie back in 2021. Once again, she was swarmed by naysayers. But a few years later, Bite Me Cookies has become something of a Torontonian phenomenon, with over 20 varieties of cookies on offer and expansions into other deserts like pies and hot chocolate.
You’re about to hear Cindy’s best advice on receiving feedback as a leader. She breaks down different kinds of feedback, how they can either help or hinder you, and plenty of practical tips on how to pivot based on the feedback you receive.
Cindy talks about:
Speaking of feedback...we'd love to hear yours!
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Hosted by Katherin Vasilopoulos. Made by Cansulta and Ethan Lee.
Music by © Chris Zabriskie, published by You've Been a Wonderful Laugh Track (ASCAP).
Songs used in this episode include: "Air Hockey Saloon," "An Extraordinary Camera Was Custom Built and Used Only Once," "Short Song 012023," "Short Song 012823," " Short Song 020623," "Short Song 021123," "We Always Thought the Future Would Be Kind of Fun."
Used under the Creative Commons 4.0 International License
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:00:00]:
When your leadership skills aren't quite there, does your team tell you? When your friends doubt your abilities to do something, do you listen to them? Feedback can come to us in many dizzying forms. Constriction and guidance are the two sides of the feedback coin. But sometimes we have to squint to tell which is which. Starting off as one of Toronto's youngest clinical psychologists, Cindy Wahler faced constant doubt. She was told that she'd never make it, that the climb would be too steep. But today, she uses her understanding of psychology to consult for organizations like Ralph Lauren, ExxonMobil, and Toyota on effective leadership development. She regularly types up articles for Forbes, CNN, and Huffington Post. She also bakes cookies.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:00:50]:
Always on the lookout for new projects, Cindy started Bite Me Cookies back in 2021. Once again, she was swarmed by naysayers. There were aspects of the business that required her to develop totally new skills, Like learning to market through social media. But as you'll quickly realize, Cindy's secret weapon is her ability to navigate feedback. A few years later, and bite me cookies has become something of a Torontonian phenomenon with over 20 varieties of cookies on offer and expansions into other desserts like pies and hot chocolate. You're about to hear Cindy's best advice on receiving feedback as a leader. She breaks down different kinds of feedback, how they can either help or hinder you, and plenty of practical tips on how to pivot based on the feedback you receive? I'm Katherine Vasilopoulos, and this is And So, She Left, the podcast about incredible women founders and the wisdom they uncovered beyond the corporate world.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:02:11]:
When Cindy's son was growing up, their house was the center of the universe. Cindy took the lead to make it an inviting space for him and his friends, Often placing her delicious cookies on the counter, she was even told that she should open a cookie business. And before bite me cookies was ever a serious consideration, Cindy applied her understanding of leadership psychology to a much different field. Being in a leadership position or talking about leadership, it doesn't come easy to everyone. Like, how did you decide that that's what you wanted to do?
Cindy Wahler [00:02:43]:
It's a great question. And you're right. It doesn't come easy to everyone, and not everyone wants to have-
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:02:47]:
No.
Cindy Wahler [00:02:48]:
- a leadership position. Not everyone wants to lead people, and sometimes, managers are promoted when they really didn't want to lead people. In terms of how I went into it, I see that it is a crossover between, my previous role as a psychologist and now as a leadership consultant because it is about what drives people, what type of role do you need to have, what type of work do you wanna do, and how do you want to, if you do, wanna make a difference and leave a legacy? And as you suggest, Katherin, not everyone naturally comes to a leadership position knowing how to, cultivate others. And so that's where I come in to teach those kind of leadership skills, which has a lot to do with having emotional intelligence, active listening skills, the art of negotiation, collaboration, partnering. So it is a complex set of skills.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:03:44]:
Okay. That's exciting because you just took the words out of what my next question is. What are the qualities that are required for a modern day leader because we have seen all kinds over the last few decades, but in today's world, We need to figure out, well, what what does it take in order for people to to survive as leaders now?
Cindy Wahler [00:04:02]:
It's a great question. First off, I think, you know, in previous generations, it used to be that we were told as employees to leave your personal life at the door and come in as the employee with your worker persona on. Great leaders today recognize that we all have personal family challenges that do interface with our day to day lives. And so leaders need to be sensitive to that, that there are certain periods in our lives where there are challenges that we need to be sensitive to, so that's 1. I also think that as a leader, it's important that you're giving ongoing feedback to your employees around how they are performing, how they're showing up, what they're really good at, make them feel valued, and also what the opportunity is for development so that they can be even more impactful. Great leaders have what I call a humble level of confidence, so that means that they are able to inspire and motivate others, but at the same time, they're able to be vulnerable, able to be wrong, and they take in information and diverse perspectives because they're not the smartest person in the room and that they need to collaborate with others. I strongly believe that nobody is successful by themselves, and so even the most talented leaders need to surround themselves with experts.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:05:30]:
I like what you said there. It's like you're not always the smartest person in the room, but you do need to recognize how to find other people's strengths. And that creates a much better work environment and lets people feel validated in their roles. A big part of people's identity is, you know, work. It is a definition in part of who you are at any given moment during your life. What happens after you you decide that you've gone through the first 2 careers in your life, so to speak, and then what happened next?
Cindy Wahler [00:06:05]:
So what happened next was is first of all, just to know a little bit about me. I have a very low threshold for boredom. And so that combined with liking to take risks, having a sense of curiosity, and breaking rules, I tell everybody that I failed as an employee. So I worked within a corporation early on in my career for a total of 3 years when I realized that for me, I wasn't the best fit with a lot of bureaucracy, a lot of process, a lot of procedure, and so it did spur me to go out on my own. So alongside my leadership development practice, I did a number of things. 1, I recently wrote a book on effective attributes for leaders. And at the same time, because I love to bake, I decided this would be a good opportunity for me to open a baking business called Bite Me Cookie, which is on Instagram, and it's been around for just a little under 3 years now. And I now have over 20 cookie flavors and at least 12 to 15 other desserts from tiramisu to cheesecake to, other kinds of, desserts like tarte tatin, apple pie bars, and many other sweets.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:07:28]:
Yeah. Anyone who knows me knows I've been on a diet recently, and eating any of those things has been so restrictive. So just the name, and all that. Oh, okay. Delicious. So, how did you decide that, you know, okay, you took a a passion that many people have, many people bake, but then you decide, okay, but this could turn into a business. What was the thought process there?
Cindy Wahler [00:07:50]:
Well, I actually would didn't have many thoughts except to say that I will try this. And I always say this to myself, what is the actual worst that could happen? The worst that could happen is that I will fail and but at least I will try this. And so I don't in life want to have regrets that I should've, could've. And I think there's great credit we should give to each other and to everybody who tries something even if something is not successful. So I did not at the time, two and a half years ago, I have an Instagram account, and I had to learn how to navigate that and then, compete in a world where there's many, many, as you know, baked goods. Yes. Yes. So it was a learning curve.
Cindy Wahler [00:08:36]:
And the more challenging something is the more competitive I become, not with other people, but I become competitive with myself. And so when people say to me, it's unlikely that you'll be able to do this or it's unlikely that you'll be successful, It just actually is a great motivator. It spurs me on to work harder and to showcase that it is possible.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:09:01]:
Tell me more about that. Like, what what have people told you when you told them this is my idea now. This is what I'm launching into. What have people said to you, and how did you react? Yeah.
Cindy Wahler [00:09:11]:
Sure. Well, there was, varied reactions, Katherin, from, why. Like, why would you do that? I don't understand that. You are already are successful. You already are established. You already are so busy. Why would you do it? To, well, what if you're too successful? And I said, well, what does that mean? Well, if you're too successful and you can't manage it. So I said, well, that's a good problem to have, but that's not a reason not to do it.
Cindy Wahler [00:09:41]:
And other things like, you know, it won't work because, you know, you're probably late to the game. There are established businesses in this discipline, in this, sector. And when I think about my success over my various careers, I like to think of myself as a serial entrepreneur. It has to do with one thing, and that is I surround myself with experts. And so I do a lot of research. I get a lot of advice. I listen to the pros and cons, and then it's up to me then to distill all that feedback, see what is the right kind of feedback, And determine whether I should forge ahead. And I do strongly believe that expertise around me is what has allowed me to be successful in any endeavor I do.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:10:33]:
Do you think that people are projecting their own anxieties onto you when they say certain things that are negative?
Cindy Wahler [00:10:40]:
Oh, absolutely. I think that's, very well said. And, you know, when I wrote my book on leadership, the same thing was like, oh my goodness. It's gonna take you forever. What if you never finish it? What if it's not published? What if you don't sell a copy? And, sure, all those things are reality, that's possible. Though those are real possibilities. And so a lot of people have a lot of dreams and ideas, but most people don't execute. So they can offer advice around, here's what I should do, you should do, and they have a lot of, of their own aspirations, but sadly, don't put that into operation.
Cindy Wahler [00:11:23]:
Don't execute on it because it's just too anxiety provoking, and it's too overwhelming.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:11:29]:
Yes. And, and many people don't know how to tap into their own personal courage because it's so much easier. It's so much easier to say I won't do it because I'm not Sure I'll I'll be a success at it, and then you start doubting yourself and saying, okay, well, I'll just sit here and watch TV instead of actually going for whatever it is that I'm dreaming about.
Cindy Wahler [00:11:46]:
Which is a safer route. Yes. Very good. Take the safer route, there's less risk. You are more protected, And there's less opportunity for failure. But when we take the safer route, there's also less opportunity for success. Mhmm. My days are much longer because I might be getting up at 5 in the morning to, bake, and I do a lot of private events now.
Cindy Wahler [00:12:11]:
I do a lot of corporate events, and so it has grown, and it's it's just, an exciting place to be.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:12:19]:
It's exciting. It is. You're, you're just, you keep adding layers to your skillset and all the successes that you're having. And I'm very curious to know what kind of big challenges have you overcome by doing this?
Cindy Wahler [00:12:32]:
So I think the primary challenge has to do with Just learning and not having any knowledge about particular industries. So when I moved from clinical psychology into Leadership consulting that I had to understand effective leadership may mean one thing in one company. It may mean something else in another. And also as mentioned with my cookie business, I didn't really understand how Instagram worked, How I had to promote, how social media is such a integral part of the marketing arm. And I think at the end of the day, If I look across various careers that I have had and have, there is a common theme and that is about Being able to listen to the feedback that you get. What are your clients asking of you? What do your customers want? And can you pivot and adapt to that feedback? And so that you don't stay rigid, but that you're aligned with what The market is telling you, you need to be delivered.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:13:37]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Did you ever wonder or feel that this isn't gonna work, or I'm not good enough, or there's already too many people in this. Do you ever have those moments? Yeah.
Cindy Wahler [00:13:48]:
All the time. Those moments are pervasive and they come and they go, and I try to engage in self talk and, you know, use logic and reason to combat some of that internal negative talk, that's always there. You know, am I as only as good as my last coaching engagement, my last team facilitation, my last batch of cookies, for sure that's there, but I want to forge ahead and Keep going, because one day I won't be able to, so why wouldn't I do it?
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:14:25]:
How do you how do you build the the self esteem muscle that goes with becoming an entrepreneur?
Cindy Wahler [00:14:33]:
So I think there are a number of traits that entrepreneurs share. We are very hard on ourselves. We are very driven. We do have a sense of curiosity. We like to take risks. We don't really like to follow rules, and we see opportunities where others don't see that opportunity. And so even if there is some failure and a learning curve, as long as there's a little bit of success, that's what keeps me going and that I can sort of learn to adjust. So when I first started, for example, the cookie business, it was exclusively cookies.
Cindy Wahler [00:15:10]:
And then I thought about it. I thought, well, if I expand my offerings and my current customer base is loyal. Would they not want a chocolate cake with chocolate truffle ganache? Wouldn't they? Would they not want tiramisu? And so it is about learning not to stand still, and then with each risk I take, if there's positive feedback, that does help my self esteem.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:15:36]:
Yes. Yes. And having external validation to some point, I guess.
Cindy Wahler [00:15:41]:
Absolutely. If I sell my book, then I know that it must be worthy. People must be reading it. And on average, my corporate clients have been my clients for anywhere between 5 to 18 years now. So the way I looked at it is is, you know, senior leaders, executives come and go, but there's a core set of leaders that endorse what I'm doing, feel that they're getting good return on the leadership services that I offer. And so that also makes me feel valued and that they're getting a good ROI and that there's an impact that I have.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:16:20]:
That's so well said. You know, you you look at how your clients are responding to your services or your products and the continued business, the returning business That says everything. It's it's even more powerful than any awards or accolades that you may get. It's this returning client concept in business.
Cindy Wahler [00:16:39]:
Absolutely. You know, it's very hard to get a client in the 1st place, but it's much harder to get repeat business. And so, that's what I never take for granted. I don't assume that I'll be invited back. I have to prove myself, and I have to continue to prove myself and continue to win, and earn that trust, on a repeated basis. So, mhmm. It goes back to that humility and that balance between being self assured but being open to making mistakes, being wrong, adjusting, and acknowledging when you're when you're wrong.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:17:17]:
Yes. Yes. You're always navigating and and readjusting course as things emerge. And you just mentioned a very interesting word there, which is trust. And funny enough, that you say that all of my invoices to my clients at the bottom say thank you for your trust and your business.
Cindy Wahler [00:17:31]:
Fantastic. I love that tagline.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:17:34]:
Oh, thank you. Without that trust, you don't get to go any further with them. They, you need to have this two way trust that you will deliver what you said you're going to deliver, and then they will appreciate what you've done and then pay you in kind. So It's a it's a two way street and no one's trying to screw anybody over. It really has to be about that.
Cindy Wahler [00:17:52]:
Absolutely. You know, and I think that's the foundation to all relationships, whether it's personal family, private, intimate, business, it really is the kind of marker that has to be built As you suggest.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:18:06]:
Yes.
Cindy Wahler [00:18:07]:
I agree.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:18:08]:
Let me ask you this then. What kind of advice would you give, aspiring entrepreneurs or people who are on the fence or even people who have had, just like you, multiple careers over their their life?
Cindy Wahler [00:18:19]:
I think a number of things. So one is I Like to tell people that they don't just have 1 skill set. You don't just have 1 professional or work identity, That most of our skills are transferable. So, you know, if you are in a relationship based business, regardless of what business you're in, if you're great at communicating, if you're great at relationships, then you can transfer those skills to a different sector. So it is about thinking about not just that you're proficient in 1 skew or in 1 discipline. So that's the first thing. 2, I think that you do need to ask yourself the question, what is the absolute worst that could happen? So if you leave your job if you leave your employer to go out on your own and it doesn't work out, you can always get a job with a different employer, but you can always go back to being an employee.
Cindy Wahler [00:19:18]:
But at least you have tried that. You've explored that. I think that it is critical to surround yourself with people who have, expertise, wisdom, and listen to what they have to say, and they're gonna ask you fantastic questions. When people ask you great questions, it causes, certainly me, to think harder and to work harder at articulating what my vision is, what my passion is, and how I'm gonna operationalize it. So the more you talk about it, whether it's with experts or whether it's at your dinner party or cocktail party, the more it advances your thinking. And then I think the other point is is that nothing stays the same. So whatever allows you to be successful when you first start, you shouldn't look at your business as static. And so how do you need to change? Pay attention to what consumers are saying because consumers, have the most power.
Cindy Wahler [00:20:20]:
And you need to listen to what they want, what they need, what they don't like, what they like. And if you could adjust, then you're staying relevant. If you don't adjust to what consumers want, then you will be historical, and then you won't be able to sustain your business.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:20:36]:
Oh my god. That that last one is so true. I love that piece of advice to just to remain relevant and to keep your ear to the ground and know what your clients want, because then you become dinosaur. You know, you, you just, we get to a certain age. There's new people coming onto the market all the time. Markets get saturated. And so you always need to have a differentiating point. And you also need to know what your clients want for them not to go to see the competitor.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:21:00]:
Give me some examples of what people have told you when they say to you, oh, this is not a good business idea or, like, tell me a bit about that history where you've had to make multiple leaps from one thing to the other to the other. Yeah.
Cindy Wahler [00:21:16]:
Sure. So when I started as a clinical psychologist and I knew I wanted to go out on my own, and I went to talk to a lot of psychologists, even those ones who already were in independent practice. I wouldn't be a threat to them because they were very established. They suggested that I I shouldn't do it because the burden would be huge. It would be highly stressful. And where was I gonna get my clients anyways? And it would be tough. And so that was some of the feedback, and all those things are true. Yes.
Cindy Wahler [00:21:51]:
The ownership of looking after people's well-being, I can't understate it. And so I needed to understand, okay. Well, how do I differentiate myself as a psychologist? Where is the niche? What target area? What area of the city. And so I was particular about where to set up shop, what my practice was gonna be about, and how I was gonna develop relationships with family doctors that were going to help build my practice. So, you know, that's an example of taking some of the naysayers and listening to that feedback as it is accurate, but it doesn't have to be something that's gonna shut me down. And the same thing with leadership. Well, the comments were, well, what do you know about business? You don't understand business. And I that's true.
Cindy Wahler [00:22:40]:
I don't understand business, But I understand people because I studied people, and I understand human behavior. And we do know that for organizations to be successful, no matter how innovative a product is or how extraordinary a product is, it's the people that are gonna make that company successful.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:23:02]:
Tell me what you've learned about people over the years.
Cindy Wahler [00:23:05]:
Well, I think I've learned that every single person, regardless of their veneer, is vulnerable. So whether somebody, may show up as arrogant or the smartest person in the room or, knowing everything. I do remember, for example, I had a very first meeting with a coaching client, and he said to me after 5 minutes, Cindy, if anyone should be coaching anybody, I should be coaching you. And so I I paused and laughed and I said, okay. What would you like to coach me on? And he said, well, you don't know thing about my business, I'm gonna teach you about my business. And I said, well, in fairness to you, you know, I will only be able to understand a very primitive level. This is your area of expertise. The way I took it was that at the end of the day, even though he was quite old and blustery, he probably was threatened by our relationship or the coaching engagement, and my goal was to make him feel safe, win his trust.
Cindy Wahler [00:24:08]:
And so when you ask me about what what have I learned about people, I think that every one of us does need to feel valued and respected. What we do need to understand is that everyone has a different definition of how they feel valued. For some, it may be compensation. For others, maybe it's a title for others. Maybe it's helping and developing others. So it's really important for leaders to understand what motivates their team? What is it that their direct reports want? And if they have 8 direct reports, I'm gonna guess they're gonna get 8 different answers. And so that's,
Cindy Wahler [00:24:44]:
one of my clients once said to me, you know, how many leadership styles do I need to have? And I said, well, as many as the people that you actually lead.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:24:53]:
So, Cindy, let me ask you this then. So in many companies, departments use data as a way to make business decisions. But do you think that there's something that has to be said about using the human element in making decisions when it comes to marketing or placement or any other parts of the business?
Cindy Wahler [00:25:15]:
100%. So I really like this question, and and you're right. There is numerical data or metrics. But when I'm working with, individuals, senior leaders, and executives, and when I'm working with teams, I always say to them, you have a perception of how you are showing up. You think that you are maybe a fantastic marketer or that you're highly strategic or you excel at operations. Maybe you do, and that might be true, but it's also important to get feedback on the ground informally. So I suggest to them that they do a three sixty, and they go to their stakeholders, not their usual cast of characters because the usual cast of characters are our fan club, so people that we work with closely, but more partners that we have and ask them, how do you see me? What is my leadership brand? And that I want to be able to enhance my skill set. And even though I might think that I'm a good team player, maybe I am not a good team player because I don't listen.
Cindy Wahler [00:26:20]:
And if I don't listen, then I'm not getting all the perspectives. I'm not getting diversity of thought, and that's gonna affect our results as a business.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:26:29]:
Do you find that the companies are using the human element enough, or are they still using the hard metrics and the data?
Cindy Wahler [00:26:37]:
I think the companies that are much more progressive, much more sophisticated understand, the importance of it. And, you know, we have obvious examples of what companies don't, and these companies no longer exist because they didn't pay attention to getting this information on the human element front, whether it's from internal feedback because I like to look at employees as our consumers as well. Employees are your first level consumers, and they need to be happy. If they're not gonna be happy, then how could the external consumers, their clients, be happy as well? Mhmm.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:27:14]:
So Yes. Yes. Yes.
Cindy Wahler [00:27:16]:
Some companies are much better at it than others.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:27:19]:
Yes. And you're right. They they do thrive, because they're more connected to what's going on out there. And tell me more about the the categories of feedback that exist. Is there such a thing?
Cindy Wahler [00:27:29]:
Well, I think that the categories of feedback, it depends on what you're after. So and it depends on what your goals are. Quite often, a lot of my clients, for example, need to learn how to make the leap between being a manager and being a leader, and being a leader means having executive presence. And they need to understand what does it mean to have executive presence, and how do you set boundaries, and how do you be compelling, and how do you, sell your point of view. So there's different measures for sure.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:28:03]:
Yes. Yes. And how do you train someone like that? How do you train someone going from, an employee status to them being in a in a more managerial or leadership position. I'm not even sure if that's the same thing. I think a manager is one thing, but a leader, it's more a function or a quality. Tell me what you think about that.
Cindy Wahler [00:28:21]:
You're so right. You're so right, Katherin, and it's why I'm so busy, because there's a distinction. You know, managers, to me, get stuff done, and that at the end of the day, there are various deliverables and targets, and leaders facilitate and get things done through other people. And so that is a huge difference, and you're right. A lot of companies, require training or don't have training, because they just assume if you've been successful as a manager, you'll be successful as a leader. And to where you're going with this, that's not true. The leadership training needs to be provided unless somebody is just naturally adept at it.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:29:04]:
And are leaders expected to be the ideas people in the team or that's not the case?
Cindy Wahler [00:29:09]:
Not necessarily. You're right. I think they can if they are able to bring out the best in others and showcase that team members do have great ideas, then that's part of their job to coach and develop and look at not coming in with the answer. Maybe they have an answer or an approach, but maybe team members have a different approach. And as if they set up the dialogue to allow for that diversity of perspective, then 1 plus 1 doesn't equal 2, and usually the outcome is a much richer solution then if they didn't vet their team.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:29:50]:
Oh, I see. I see. Yeah. You have a very strong understanding of that world. And one last question. What's 1 magic ingredient? In a cookie and in a business.
Cindy Wahler [00:30:03]:
Wow. Okay. You made me step back. Now I have to think hard, Katherin. I think the magic ingredient is to be able to persevere. And so feedback that I have received, from family and friends and colleagues is that I'm intense, and that's accurate. I am intense. And so I keep going.
Cindy Wahler [00:30:27]:
And, again, when someone says no. I wanna find a way around that. I will be a good sport only after I've exhausted all possibilities. So I think the magic in ingredient is perseverance and self discipline. Mhmm.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:30:44]:
And in the cookie?
Cindy Wahler [00:30:46]:
Well, it's the same thing. I mean, I think the same thing about, you know, persevering to make a better and better product, a more inviting product, And have diversity in in my products, is the same thing about being tenacious and never settling, never compromising, never taking your eye off the ball ever.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:31:09]:
Thank you so much to Cindy Wahler. You can learn more about bite me cookies through the link in the episode description. If you like the show, please rate, review, and subscribe to And So, She Left wherever you listen. Your feedback helps us to better serve current listeners and reach new ones. You can also fill out our quick feedback form. It's just 5 questions long, And your response helps us to make the show that you want to hear. And so she left is made by Cansulta and Ethan Lee. We'll be back next Wednesday with a new episode.
Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:31:38]:
Our music is by Chris Zabriskie, edited for your enjoyment, and you can find a list of all the songs you heard here in the episode notes. I'm Katherin Vasilopoulos, And thanks for listening.